23-07-2005 19:08									#1
	Riots Model Increase Your PM Length

This thread follows
the Social Model v3.0 thread.
I propose a new riot model, which I attach hereunder (it's actually html, but I have to zip it in order to attach it). It's a bit big, so I'll put some extracts in the next post and comment further there.

Attachment: riots model v4.zip
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

	23-07-2005 19:14									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The main changes I suggest are the following:

-Mergeing Nationalistic Rebellion and Self Determination Feelings into a single Separatism Feeling.
The equation I propose is:
((1-DN)*1/(1 + exp(8-13*NAT))*(1-PAL) + (PI*PAL*politicalpower))*sqrt(1-CR)
where:
DN is a dummy variable taking the value 1 if the govt nationality and the EG's nationality are the same and 0 otherwise.
NAT is EG's Nationalism.
politicalpower is the political power share of the social class.
PAL is Province Autonomy.
PI is Province Isolation.
CR is Civil Rights level.

-Having separate PAFs for Revolutionary Feelins for each regime instead of lumping them all together in one event. This is very important in my opinion.

-Making economics a multiplier to other effects rather than its own effect added to the other PAF's.

-Changing Poor Welfare Feeling into:
PWF=(1 - AEL)*(1 - SP)
where:
AEL is Administration Efectiveness Level.
SP is Social Policy level.
This might need work if SP is 1 and AEL is 0 though.

One PAF has only one effect, and the more sever the PAF, the more severe the effect.

I also simplified several equations which I felt were too complex and made some changes to the civil war and internal conflict parts.

	23-07-2005 22:36									#3
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Hi Laurent:

I can't say that i've read the whole thing yet, but I looked at the intro and conclusions and skimmed the rest. Your comments and criticisms seemed reasonable to me. Thanks for all the work that you've put into this! I want to play it!

Returning to the conversation in the other thread about leaving the player the opportunity to use the old complex model. You said the AI wouldn't be able to support it. I propose that if the player wants to play the old more complex version that the AIs should still use the new version.

	24-07-2005 01:24									#4
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: I propose that if the player wants to play the old more complex version that the AIs should still use the new version.

I don't like very much keeping both codes, but activating different codes for the player and the ai is definitely something I loathe.
Who will be using the old model? I can keep it for testing purposes, but long term it doesn't make much sense to keep both codes.
One problem with the old model is it really requires you to look at spreadsheets in order to be able to correct riots. I don't think spreadsheets are necessarily bad, it's good to be able to get as much info as possible, but it shouldn't be mandatory. There's also the problem of coding all the user interface needed, which would take time and I'd rather skip it for the moment (my not liking ui coding and not seeing it as mandatory to be able to play).
I must also check what exactly is wrong with the ai. I think the problem comes from the thresholds used in the Revolutionary Feeling. The equation currently used is a (disguised) step function. You jump from a PAF of about 0.007 to 0.99 in less than 10% change, with 1% change making for a step of 0.6. This means the side effects on other PAF's of changing regime policies will hide any good effect from changing these policies in terms of revolutionary feeling.
Separating the PAFs by regime should help as we will be sure to head in the right direction when tweaking values and we may be able to optimize one of them rather than all them (3 or more) at once.

	24-07-2005 02:03									#5
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare I don't like very much keeping both codes, but activating different codes for the player and the ai is definitely something I loathe.

Ok, it's not that big a deal. Spreadsheets are definitely to be avoided.

On the step function thing, I think it's very important to get rid of that sort of behavior. Step functions lead to the need for micromanagement, and as you noted also make it hard on the AI. Not to mention being really annoying for the players.

	06-08-2005 18:18									#6
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I committed my changes to the repository. I altered the model again a little bit to remove the step/threshold effects.
The most up to date version of the model with the equations is attached.

Attachment: riots model v4.zip
This has been downloaded 0 time(s).

	07-08-2005 00:25									#7
	Tired of ads?

In order to prevent some riots, one needs to change the province autonomy in some provinces.
Therefore, I need a user interface to allow such changes to be done. Since it's a province only thing, it raises user interface issues about how to show province specific information. Currently, info is shown by domain (there's one econ gui, one social gui), each of which cn be applied to the whole civ or just a province (or even a square). I can do something similar for province autonomy, but I don't really think it'd be appropriate. I think a list of provinces with 'PAL' level adjustable, and later whatever variable we may want to put there for the player to tweak, would be more appropriate. Opinions?

	07-08-2005 00:29									#8
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Your preferred solution sounds better to me.

	07-08-2005 01:37									#9
	Put an end to popups!

One more thing.
I don't like the Replace Ruler Feeling. It's basically a mix of Bad Policies Feeling and Revolutionary (Regime Change) Feeling, except it focuses on the ruler's profile rather than the government's. It's also more pronounced in the capital province.
I don't like tweaking the same parameters for too many reasons and would like to scrap this one altogether, but that may be oversimplifying. This needs testing.

	11-08-2005 15:58									#10
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I still have yet to figure out what real signifigance RRF plays since if your wanting to riot for other reasons, your wanting to replace the ruler anyway.

	12-08-2005 23:51									#11
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: I still have yet to figure out what real signifigance RRF plays since if your wanting to riot for other reasons, your wanting to replace the ruler anyway.

Yes, that's exactly my problem too.

This feeling may actually encourage the player to state he wants policies different from what he wants in order to avoid it:
e.g. I want slavery 0 and tax rate 20, but can move these values only in the ranges 15-25 and 5-15 respectively.
If I state I want slavery of 15 and tax of 20, I get the same actual results in the negotiation system, but the replace ruler feelings will be lower, so I'd rather be Machiavellian here.

I added a quick user interface for province autonomy in the social panel as it's something the ai can advise you to change in order to reduce riots, but it's not really good. A province panel will require a lot more work, but that's where we should go. Just not for the next demo yet.

	30-08-2005 03:15									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I mentioned this to Laurent already, though I don't know if he already has plans to fix it - the current testbed produces no riots whatsoever. I've mainly played with the social test scenario (since that's what it's there for) and the ancient agean scenario (since I'm finally getting around to tweaking the numbers on the simple tech system). I just thought this little bit of info should be here as well, incase someone else wanted to suggest 'fixes'.

	03-09-2005 17:11									#13
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I don't know why you don't get the riots. I uploaded a testbed which was quite buggy but riots happen in it. The current code has riots too, but I have problems committing my changes. Here's a picture of a lot of riots. It may not show very well (I had to resize the image to 800x600 down from initial resolution), but the Pella task force just revolted.
I currently have more problems with revolutions and independence happening everywhere, and some bugs with the newly created civs.

Attachment: riots800x600.jpg
This has been downloaded 5 time(s).

	03-09-2005 20:17									#14
	Inflate your Upload Space

I didn't know about the repository problems, so it's probably just out-of-date files on my end.