24-07-2005 08:17									#1
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quote: 'Nazi' row over Indian textbooks Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi Gujarat is led by Chief Minister Hindu nationalist Narendra Modi Human rights campaigners in India's Gujarat state have condemned school textbooks which they say praise Hitler. The books are issued by the Hindu nationalist state government. One includes a chapter on the "internal achievements of Nazism". A Jesuit priest and social activist, Cedric Prakash, says the books contain more than 300 factual errors and make little mention of the holocaust. The Gujarat government has dismissed the charges as baseless. A senior official from the state education department told the BBC that anomalies arose when the book was translated from Gujarati into English, and are being quoted out of context. Troubled state The books, used to teach students aged 13 to 15, were introduced last year and have been reissued for the current school year. Father Prakash told AFP news agency: "We first researched the textbooks in 2004 and pointed out some glaringly distorted historical facts to the state education board. "Despite protests from parents, peace activists and educationists, the updated school books still contain the same objectionable text this academic year." He said it was time to take the matter to court. In the chapter entitled "Internal achievements of Nazism," one textbook quoted by AFP states: "Hitler lent dignity and prestige to the German government within a short time, establishing a strong administrative set-up." Communal feelings run high in Gujarat - once the adopted home of Mahatma Gandhi. Religious riots in 2002 officially killed more than 1,000 people, most of them Muslims. Human rights groups place the figure much higher.

Hmmm...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4711475.stm

quote: In the chapter entitled "Internal achievements of Nazism," one textbook quoted by AFP states: "Hitler lent dignity and prestige to the German government within a short time, establishing a strong administrative set-up."

What's the problem with this? The 1930s German leadership had more prestige and German self confidence was higher than the Weimar Republic had ever achieved by a country mile.

Has it got to the stage where it's impossible to be historically objective about the Nazi regime? Any objective historian will admit the Nazi leadership before 1939 turned Germany into a highly efficient and powerful economy, but it seems we can't mention an objective word about the regime internally without 1000 caveats.

It's a bit hard to see how making "Nazi = bad, no matter what it is" a fact and expecting people to understand "Germany brought Europe to its knees in 2 years".

	24-07-2005 08:20									#2
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The truth hurts often, but thats why it needs to be taught.

	24-07-2005 08:22									#3
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quote: make little mention of the holocaust.

Frozzy you're mostly right, but a more appropriate book would include the most important parts of his regime:

* the holocaust
* war with the soviets
* mistreatment of all his neighboring nations
* racism in the nazi regime

	24-07-2005 08:26									#4
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We'd have to see the whole chapter to really decide whether it is biased or not. If there was an accompanying chapter on the holocaust and such, and then students were challenged to reconcile the two then that'd be much different than a chapter on the positive accomplishments of Nazi Germany (even if all true), and only token mention of the regime's crimes.

	24-07-2005 08:27									#5
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Yeah, and "establishing a strong administrative set-up" sounds rather euphemistic. A word on his methods shouldn't be too much.....

	24-07-2005 08:29									#6
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quote: Any objective historian will admit the Nazi leadership before 1939 turned Germany into a highly efficient and powerful economy

Really? I'm not particularly into economic history, but those accounts I've read have stressed the inefficient "command" aspects of the Nazi economy. That Germany seemed rich in the '30s was mostly due to everyone else doing badly at the time.

	24-07-2005 08:29									#7
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Well, Nazi does = bad! I don't think that Germany had more prestige under Hitler, at least not outside Germany. Many people around the world were not fooled by Hitler. Furthermore much of Nazi germany's economic "miracle" was a sham. They took the wealth of a moderately well off 10% segment of the population, the Jews, and redistributed it to the less well off or used it to fund work projects to jack up their economic stats, but wrote off the people they plundered (except when figuring the census) as if they didn't exist.

	24-07-2005 08:30									#8
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quote: Frozzy you're mostly right, but a more appropriate book would include the most important parts of his regime: * the holocaust * war with the soviets * mistreatment of all his neighboring nations * racism in the nazi regime

Oh sure. I just think somebody basing an argument for banning the books because it mentions internal achievements of Nazism (which there were) is being rather hypocritical if s/he arguing for more objective history.

	24-07-2005 08:33									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove They took the wealth of a moderately well off 10% segment of the population, the Jews, and redistributed it to the less well off or used it to fund work projects to jack up their economic stats, but wrote off the people they plundered (except when figuring the census) as if they didn't exist.

Sounds like what Europe has been doing ever since.

	24-07-2005 08:34									#10
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quote: Really? I'm not particularly into economic history, but those accounts I've read have stressed the inefficient "command" aspects of the Nazi economy. That Germany seemed rich in the '30s was mostly due to everyone else doing badly at the time.

False. You must point that Germany managed to recovery from the world economic crisis triggered by Wall Street market crash at record time, considering the post-1st WW war damage conditions.

	24-07-2005 08:38									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Datajack Franit False. You must point that Germany managed to recovery from the world economic crisis triggered by Wall Street market crash at record time, considering the post-1st WW war damage conditions.

Chiefly by public works and military spending.

If you want to convince me that the Nazi economy was very efficient, please point to literature making the case.

	24-07-2005 08:44									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Well, Nazi does = bad! I don't think that Germany had more prestige under Hitler, at least not outside Germany. Many people around the world were not fooled by Hitler. Furthermore much of Nazi germany's economic "miracle" was a sham. They took the wealth of a moderately well off 10% segment of the population, the Jews, and redistributed it to the less well off or used it to fund work projects to jack up their economic stats, but wrote off the people they plundered (except when figuring the census) as if they didn't exist.

	24-07-2005 08:45									#13
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Well that's economic sense. If you're a govenment, to get out of a depression you need to spend on infrastructure and create jobs.

EDIT: X-Post with Odin

Last edited by Kalius on 24-07-2005 at 08:57

	24-07-2005 08:54									#14
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quote: If you want to convince me that the Nazi economy was very efficient, please point to literature making the case.

Just don't ask me this at 5.50AM

	24-07-2005 09:06									#15
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You take the jobs of 10% of the nation, give them to another 10%, then write off the victims as if they didn;t exist and voila you're about half-way towards full employment. You get the rest of the way there by forcing some workers work fewer hours in order to make jobs for the unemployed. This is not a miracle, it's cheating, something that Hitler was never above doing.

I might also point out that in the US the Supreme Court would not allow FDR's administration to count people enrolled in the work programs such as the CCC and ther WPA as being employed. When those programs were at their peak the US unemployment rate, counting people enrolled in work programs, was actually one third less than the listed rate

	24-07-2005 10:29									#16
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quote: You take the jobs of 10% of the nation, give them to another 10%, then write off the victims as if they didn;t exist and voila you're about half-way towards full employment. You get the rest of the way there by forcing some workers work fewer hours in order to make jobs for the unemployed. This is not a miracle, it's cheating, something that Hitler was never above doing.

Expanding the army and increasing demand for munitions, equipment and manpower didn't do any harm either.

	24-07-2005 12:15									#17
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I thought this would be about american indians when I opened this thread.

	24-07-2005 12:40									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove You take the jobs of 10% of the nation, give them to another 10%, then write off the victims as if they didn;t exist and voila you're about half-way towards full employment. You get the rest of the way there by forcing some workers work fewer hours in order to make jobs for the unemployed. This is not a miracle, it's cheating, something that Hitler was never above doing. I might also point out that in the US the Supreme Court would not allow FDR's administration to count people enrolled in the work programs such as the CCC and ther WPA as being employed. When those programs were at their peak the US unemployment rate, counting people enrolled in work programs, was actually one third less than the listed rate

And it also helped that the inmates of the concentration camps had to do forced labor and german industries were encouraged to employ them in their own factories (Schindlers factory was one example of many german corporations doing this [and most of them didnīt care for their workers the same way Schindler did])

	24-07-2005 18:59									#19
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At least in my textbooks , the evils of the Nazi regime were well-documented , with some rather graphic images and descriptions .

	24-07-2005 19:11									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Datajack Franit False. You must point that Germany managed to recovery from the world economic crisis triggered by Wall Street market crash at record time, considering the post-1st WW war damage conditions.

Germany had almost no damage from WWI. With the exceptiopn of a sliver of Eastern Prussia and a tiny corner of SW Alsace, the war was fought entirely on Allied territory (wrt Germany).

However, he was incorrect about the German economy being a command economy. There were large state orders, but the economy was still a market economy.

	24-07-2005 20:46									#21
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quote: Germany had almost no damage from WWI. With the exceptiopn of a sliver of Eastern Prussia and a tiny corner of SW Alsace, the war was fought entirely on Allied territory (wrt Germany).

Yeah right, as if losing three provinces and paying war damage to other countries didn't harm

	24-07-2005 20:59									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Datajack Franit Yeah right, as if losing three provinces and paying war damage to other countries didn't harm

No one whined when Germany took those provinces from Poland and France.

	25-07-2005 00:34									#23
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I think they did.

	25-07-2005 01:54									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Kalius I think they did.

OK, no one except the victims whined. Happy?

I've encountered a sort of historical revisionist movement among Indians. There are some who want to minimize the role of Mahatma Ghandi in the creation of independent India and replace him with Chandra Bose as India's hero of the independence movement. Chandra Bose was an Indian militant who escaped imprisonment by the British and sought asylum in Nazis Germany. When the Japanese invaded Southeast Asia he volunteered to raise an Indian National Army to fight along side of them. When Japanese military power collapsed he fled to Indochina, where he dissappeared. It's thought that Vietnamese guerillas may have executed him or that his plane may have been shot down. Those who support giving him an honored place as an Indian hero do cartwheels and backflips to explain why his association with Nazi fascism and Japanese aggression wasn't really as bad at it seems. Evidently he didn't inhale.