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CarnalCanaan is offline CarnalCanaan
Chieftain
The Biggest Little City in the World
May 2004
time: 05:37
  Old Post 25-07-2005 15:35
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A question of air superiority Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

In my comings and goings I have not noticed any mention of the implementation of air units in CivIV.

Any info I can be pointed towards?

(Perhaps I'm only asking this cuz I finished my first standard game with a full-scale air war. It was mightily satisfying. And I even lost! Those damn Turks got the jet engine faster than I expected and wiped my glorious Zulu Air Force from the skies. ... But it's okay. It's good. Change a few build orders here, rush a few others there... the noble airmen of KwaZulu are not so easily deterred.)

AeonOfTime is offline AeonOfTime
Warlord
Overclocking DOSBox
Nov 2000
time: 06:37
  Old Post 25-07-2005 21:49 Visit AeonOfTime's homepage!
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In all the interviews I read (I think all of them featured here on poly and in the forum) the late game has not been touched yet - we don't have any screenshots or any other details. Big mystery... but I would like to know too, with the new HP system, promotions and all.

Stealth Bombers with precision promotions!

Platypus Rex is offline Platypus Rex

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Sep 2002
time: 21:37
  Old Post 25-07-2005 23:25 Visit Platypus Rex<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/inmate-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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there is a screenie with what looked like infantry

maybe we be teased more later with another screenie

lets hope for a tank or jet...or nuke

Aro is offline Aro
Emperor
Ipanema
Jul 2002
time: 02:37
  Old Post 25-07-2005 23:33 Visit Aro's homepage!
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I'm pretty sure we'll have tanks, jets and nukes.
But I may be wrong... I'm an optimistic person.

The diplomat is offline The diplomat
King
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Sep 1999
time: 23:37
  Old Post 26-07-2005 00:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Platypus Rex
lets hope for a tank or jet...or nuke


With the new 3D graphics, I am hoping the nuclear mushroom is really cool!

The diplomat is offline The diplomat
King
Terre Haute, IN USA
Sep 1999
time: 23:37
  Old Post 26-07-2005 00:15
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I think airpower needs to be somewhere in between civ3 and SMAC. In civ3, airpower was too weak. In SMAC it was too strong.

Trifna is offline Trifna
King
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Jul 2001
time: 13:37
  Old Post 26-07-2005 00:34
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I saw the best air powers in Starcraft, Rise of Nations, and SupremeRuler 2010.

I didn`'t see tons of those in my life, but it's nice to have some good examples. The question is how can this be brought into a TBS? Planes are fast, and turns break time in sequence when it is too fast to be presented in such a way, since in such a time scale it would be blurred to "moving area" rather than a precise unit.

I think that a solution could be to have a unit with its area (in the sense that it affects this area, is fast enough to be somewhere there). It's between Civ2 and Civ3.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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Feb 2001
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  Old Post 26-07-2005 00:45
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quote:
Originally posted by The diplomat
I think airpower needs to be somewhere in between civ3 and SMAC. In civ3, airpower was too weak. In SMAC it was too strong.


In Conquests air power became too strong.

I bet they keep the Civ3 air model.

korn469 is offline korn469
King
Poetic Justic
Apr 1999
time: 00:37
  Old Post 26-07-2005 00:58
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I hope they keep the civ3 model (with some tweaks of course). If they go back to a SMAC/Civ2 model I wouldn't like that at all. I hated that in those games air units couldn't fly over land units, and that air units could also act as roadblocks to units that didn't have SAM capabilities.

vee4473 is offline vee4473
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Feb 2000
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  Old Post 26-07-2005 05:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker


In Conquests air power became too strong.

I bet they keep the Civ3 air model.


Do you mean because air units got lethal bombard?

If so, that is essential. Air units should have lethal bombard. No question.

If you disagree, another way should be found to balance. To have air units that can't kill through bombing is dumb.

CarnalCanaan:

They got the jet engine? What exactly are you referring to?

vee4473 is offline vee4473
Prince
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Feb 2000
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  Old Post 26-07-2005 05:41
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CarnalCanaan:

By the way, everytime I see a post by you, I think of Louis Jordan's villain in the James Bond movie Octopussy....Kamal Khan, or however you spell it.

ha!

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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  Old Post 26-07-2005 06:27
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quote:
Originally posted by vee4473
Do you mean because air units got lethal bombard?


Yes.

quote:
If so, that is essential. Air units should have lethal bombard. No question.


Except for the slight question of game balance

Platypus Rex is offline Platypus Rex

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Sep 2002
time: 21:37
  Old Post 26-07-2005 06:38 Visit Platypus Rex<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/inmate-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by vee4473


Do you mean because air units got lethal bombard?

If so, that is essential. Air units should have lethal bombard. No question.



AND Never miss, at least a flesh wound (1hp)

vee4473 is offline vee4473
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  Old Post 27-07-2005 04:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker


Yes.

quote:
If so, that is essential. Air units should have lethal bombard. No question.


Except for the slight question of game balance


Game balance is a concern with lethal air, but rather than castrate the realistic lethality of a bobmer, another way should be found for balance I think.

For instance, i think units hiding in mountainous tiles should have gotten more of a defense boost than they did.

Not to mention that (and maybe it's just my bad luck), but anti-air units in civ3 suck.

They RARELY work, so increasing their effectiveness would have to happen before stacking them with an attacking force becomes a defense option.


Could just be my bad luck though..

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
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Aug 2001
time: 00:37
  Old Post 27-07-2005 04:25
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Lethal bombard isn't the problem in C3C, it's the never-missing part. They broke bombard with that.

vee4473 is offline vee4473
Prince
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Feb 2000
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  Old Post 27-07-2005 04:33
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wow, so much perception is due to individual experience.

I have had many bombing runs fail. Granted, they are more successful than not, i'd put my experience at around 70% success/30% fail.

Hopefully all this will find it's way into a solution lurking in the minds of the programmers.

Darkstar is offline Darkstar
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Huntsville, AL, USA
May 1999
time: 23:37
  Old Post 27-07-2005 04:41
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SMAC's bombardment seemed about right.

Now, I think conversations about the realism of bombing in Civ is not nearly as important as what's more fun. It would be boring to have uber kill units that you always have to be the first to have if you wanted to survive to some other win (you know, a peaceful trip to AC for instance). But, if you cannot do much with your bombers other then pick on your opponents tiles or maybe to inflict a touch of damage to a stack, then that doesn't seem like they'd be much fun either. A hard thing to find the best balance for fun.

vee4473 is offline vee4473
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Feb 2000
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  Old Post 27-07-2005 04:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkstar
SMAC's bombardment seemed about right.

Now, I think conversations about the realism of bombing in Civ is not nearly as important as what's more fun. It would be boring to have uber kill units that you always have to be the first to have if you wanted to survive to some other win (you know, a peaceful trip to AC for instance). But, if you cannot do much with your bombers other then pick on your opponents tiles or maybe to inflict a touch of damage to a stack, then that doesn't seem like they'd be much fun either. A hard thing to find the best balance for fun.


Good point, my only real beef is that at least bombers, if not all bombard units, HAVE to have lethal bombard.

Find another way to balance.

That's how I feel.

Aro is offline Aro
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Ipanema
Jul 2002
time: 02:37
  Old Post 27-07-2005 06:24 Visit Aro's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by vee4473


Good point, my only real beef is that at least bombers, if not all bombard units, HAVE to have lethal bombard.

Find another way to balance.

That's how I feel.


Agreed.

Lord Nuclear is offline Lord Nuclear
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Jun 2002
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  Old Post 27-07-2005 06:43
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I think a more important question is one of Naval superiority.

Shogun Gunner is offline Shogun Gunner

Emperor
Potomac Falls, Virginia
Oct 2000
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I think I read in another thread about the potential of using the new "promotions" feature for air units. Once air units start gaining experience, they become stronger. This is conjecture, nothing the company has announced.

However, if this is so, that provides some variability between "too weak" air units and "uber strong" air units.

Vince278 is offline Vince278
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Dec 2002
time: 05:37
  Old Post 27-07-2005 10:45
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quote:
Originally posted by The diplomat
With the new 3D graphics, I am hoping the nuclear mushroom is really cool!


Like to see nuke promotions too.

Minodrin is offline Minodrin
Settler
Finland
Dec 2001
time: 05:37
  Old Post 27-07-2005 14:19
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Couldn't we have it so that it's the bombarded unit, not the unit airplane, that has a lethal-bombardment flag. Say infantry could never be fully destroyed by air power, but tanks, SAMs, Catapults, ships and so on could be destroyed...

Platypus Rex is offline Platypus Rex

King
Give Blood..Give Life- just 20 min.. Woodland,CA
Sep 2002
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  Old Post 27-07-2005 15:47 Visit Platypus Rex<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/inmate-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by vee4473


For instance, i think units hiding in mountainous tiles should have gotten more of a defense boost than they did.


Could just be my bad luck though..



non air units right ?

quote:
originall posted by Lord Nuclear
I think a more important question is one of Naval superiority


does not the AI have to use it first ?

patcon is offline patcon
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Jan 2004
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  Old Post 27-07-2005 18:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Minodrin
Couldn't we have it so that it's the bombarded unit, not the unit airplane, that has a lethal-bombardment flag. Say infantry could never be fully destroyed by air power, but tanks, SAMs, Catapults, ships and so on could be destroyed...

Good point. Units which are concentrated are more susceptible to being completely destroyed by bombardment than units which are dispersed. There could be two flags: one for the bombarding unit which allows lethal bombardment; and one for all units which makes them susceptible to lethal bombardment. These flags could be effected by promotions.
There could even be a third flag for terrain, so that LB is less likely in wide-open spaces such as grasslands, plains, and oceans; but more likely in areas where your forces are more concentrated and confined such as mountains, forests, and coastal waters. This would make for an interesting tactical decision - do I put my forces on a mountain where they get a big defensive bonus against attack, but where a successful bombardment might be lethal?

When bombardment is attempted, first resolve whether or not the bombardment is a hit or miss, based on unit strengths. (I think that 's the way it's done now.) Then determine how much damage is done and whether or nor the bombardment is lethal.
3 LB flags - high probability of lethality
2 LB flags - medium probability of lethality
1 LB flag - low probability of lethality
0 LB flags - extremely low (but not quite zero, there is such a thing as a "lucky hit") probability of lethality
The probability could be the result of adding factors for each flag - attacker ability (starts at 20% and works up to 40% maximum via promotion), defender (starts at 40% maximum and works down to 20% via promotion), and terrain (from 0% for wide-open spaces up to 20% for confining terrain - remember these terrains already give a defensive bonus which lessens the likelihood of a successful bombardment in the first place, now we're talking about what happens if the bombarbment is successful).
0% - grassland, plains, oceans
10% - forests, hills, tundra, seas
20% - jungles, mountains, coastal water
There could even be a factor based on how many units are in a tile. After all, if there is a 50-unit SOD in a tile, those units would have to be more bunched up, so that a bombardment would be more likely to take out a complete unit. This could help put an end to the ridiculous notion of these huge stacks of units the AI is so fond of.
This may seem "complicated", but it would be behind the scenes and not something the normal player would have to deal with except at the end result level.

CarnalCanaan is offline CarnalCanaan
Chieftain
The Biggest Little City in the World
May 2004
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  Old Post 27-07-2005 21:57
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quote:
Originally posted by vee4473

CarnalCanaan:

They got the jet engine? What exactly are you referring to?


I just meant that they [the AI Ottomans] had researched rocketry (or whichever it is) sooner than I'd expected so my plans had to be "adjusted".

sophist is offline sophist
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Nov 2001
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  Old Post 27-07-2005 21:58
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A simpler way might be to have the likelihood of a hit be proportional to the number of HP left. A unit with 5/5 HP will thus be 5 times more likely to get hit when bombarded than a unit with 1/5 HP. You could still have lethal bombard, of course, but it wouldn't be a separate category of thing. That would also make artillery more consistent with its real life use in softening up defenders.

CarnalCanaan is offline CarnalCanaan
Chieftain
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May 2004
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  Old Post 27-07-2005 21:59
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quote:
Originally posted by vee4473
CarnalCanaan:

By the way, everytime I see a post by you, I think of Louis Jordan's villain in the James Bond movie Octopussy....Kamal Khan, or however you spell it.

ha!


That is the greatest compliment anyone's ever given me.



CarnalCanaan is offline CarnalCanaan
Chieftain
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May 2004
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  Old Post 27-07-2005 22:09
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I think I'd rather see a "lethal bombard"-type system remain if only because it makes it possible to lead an "air campaign" vs. a "land campaign". For what it's worth I'd also like to see earlier amphibious-type units to increase the threat of a "naval campaign". As it is now, they're barely more than cannons which you don't have to defend, but naval power decided many wars and overpowered many supposedly superior forces (think Trafalgar, the the Spanish armada or the Opium Wars... all English naval victories... hmm. Keep an eye on them bahstahds).

As for naval superiority, it would be enhanced by a good air combat simulation - especially in that elusive late modern age - when aircraft carriers replace battleships as the primary craft of the fleets.

Lord Nuclear is offline Lord Nuclear
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Jun 2002
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  Old Post 27-07-2005 22:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Platypus Rex
does not the AI have to use it first ?


That's exactly what needs to be changed. There needs to be benefits for having a naval dominance, and if you are at war, a large hinderance. Speaking of which, hopefully colonies have been expanded to something a bit more usefull.

 
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