26-07-2005 00:23									#32
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As I said. by that logic, all one needs do is fail.
A thief is caught in the act. He didn't steal, he was stopped.
Intent is key, like it or not.

	26-07-2005 00:26									#33
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quote: And, Imran, if there's a video of me throwing a bomb into your house and then taking it out later, under current law I have no defense.

And you shouldn't have. The sort of behavior of throwing bombs into people's houses should be punished, even if you get second thoughts and try to disarm it.

	26-07-2005 00:28									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber You fire a gun at me fully wishing to kill me. You miss. I come to absolutely no harm but you should be charged with attempted murder.

There are 2 cases I have in mind:

A - Trying to push a detonator that malfunctions and B - Removing a poisoned glass before someone drinks it.

I can see A being charged but why B?

quote: How about contracting for a killer and the contract killer is an FBI agent running a sting operation? Your intent is to kill but it's never going to happen.

This is a more clear case; but what if the contractor changes his mind before he is arrested? Should he be charged for attempting to do something he didn't have it in his heart to actually do?

	26-07-2005 00:30									#35
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quote: I can see A being charged but why B?

Because you engaged in an act that had a good chance of killing someone. What if the guy drank it quickly before you could get it from them.

quote: what if the contractor changes his mind before he is arrested? Should he be charged for attempting to do something he didn't have it in his heart to actually do

If he does a substantial step, yes, of course.

	26-07-2005 00:31									#36
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So many looking for a loop hole. Prisons are full of people just like you.

	26-07-2005 00:31									#37
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What about the act of shooting a man five times in the leg because he stole your dog? Is this attempted murder? Say 40% of shootings are fatal, and 60% of impassioned shootings are fatal. What is the metric you would use?

	26-07-2005 00:35									#38
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quote: Because you engaged in an act that had a good chance of killing someone. What if the guy drank it quickly before you could get it from them.

Then it's murder...but the act I engaged in caused no harm; is the point of the law now to stop people who are likely to repeat the crime?

40% of metallica listeners have smoked pot; therefore they are all guilty of attempting to smoke pot.

	26-07-2005 00:36									#39
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quote: What about the act of shooting a man five times in the leg because he stole your dog? Is this attempted murder?

Was him intent to kill him? Attempt is a specific intent crime, therefore you must have the mens rea to kill the person.

If your intent was simply to shoot him in the leg, then it is not attempted murder. It is, however, aggravated assault and battery, which would carry a heftier sentance than attempted murder.

	26-07-2005 00:37									#40
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The fact that you tried to kill someone?

	26-07-2005 00:38									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf Then it's murder...but the act I engaged in caused no harm; is the point of the law now to stop people who are likely to repeat the crime?

Um... that's kinda what deterrance is.

It doesn't matter if the act you engaged in caused no actual harm. You specifically intended to kill the person and committed a substantial step. Even if you abandon, you are still guilty of attempted murder.

quote: 40% of metallica listeners have smoked pot; therefore they are all guilty of attempting to smoke pot.

I know it's hard for you, but try not to be stupid, k?

	26-07-2005 00:39									#42
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What if 60% of all leg-shots end in fatality, and everyone testifies you were really angry he stole your dog? What's your defense?

	26-07-2005 00:39									#43
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Is this discussion a joke? I mean, we're being put-on here, aren't we?

	26-07-2005 00:41									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf What if 60% of all leg-shots end in fatality, and everyone testifies you were really angry he stole your dog? What's your defense?

quote: originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I know it's hard for you, but try not to be stupid, k?

What part of specific intent didn't you understand?

	26-07-2005 00:46									#45
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You can testify you aimed for his leg to incapacitate him. But who believes that - it was dark, you were angry. Besides shooting people in the leg is dangerous. And you're a bad shot.

So whammo! You must've wanted him dead.

	26-07-2005 00:46									#46
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I got news for you. You shoot a person 5 times in the leg, they'll likely bleed to death.
I know. That wasn't the intent. They weren't supposed to die. Oh gosh, all a mistake.

	26-07-2005 00:52									#47
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quote: originally posted by Wiglaf You can testify you aimed for his leg to incapacitate him. But who believes that - it was dark, you were angry. Besides shooting people in the leg is dangerous. And you're a bad shot.

If they don't believe you that's a different question. They have to prove you specifically intended to kill him, not that your actions are dangerous.

If they don't believe you, then they don't believe you. That's kind of why we have juries... to decide on things like that.

quote: originally posted by Slowwand I got news for you. You shoot a person 5 times in the leg, they'll likely bleed to death. I know. That wasn't the intent. They weren't supposed to die. Oh gosh, all a mistake.

Well the intent requirement for murder is looser. It just requires malice aforethought, which would include reckless indifference to human life. If he doesn't die though, they'd have to prove specific intent for attempted murder. Though they got you on battery charges, nevertheless.

	26-07-2005 01:31									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf There are 2 cases I have in mind: A - Trying to push a detonator that malfunctions and B - Removing a poisoned glass before someone drinks it. I can see A being charged but why B?

I wouldn't charge "B" with attempted murder. Its the same as the guy that buys the gun and brings it somewhere but never fires it-- the act to bring about death was never completed-- Poison glass same way-- I can prepare a lethal cocktail but if I never serve it to anyone, there was no attempt to murder

quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf This is a more clear case; but what if the contractor changes his mind before he is arrested? Should he be charged for attempting to do something he didn't have it in his heart to actually do?

Well the contractor may be charged with some form of conspiracy charge since he did agree to do a murder for hire and that in itself is a crime in many jurisdictions. But if the contractor never goes near the victim , they never did attempt a murder. I would think that you could charge the person that hired them. That person did do the hiring intending to cause the death of another.

	26-07-2005 01:38									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf What about the act of shooting a man five times in the leg because he stole your dog? Is this attempted murder? Say 40% of shootings are fatal, and 60% of impassioned shootings are fatal. What is the metric you would use?

Well

if this person dies who have committed murder or manslaughter

if they don't die, a judge or jury would infer intent from your conduct and any testimony you might give. If from a range of 3 feet, all bullets struck below your victim's knee, you might have a good argument-- "heck-- he was right there and I could have shot him in the chest"-- It won't matter a great deal anyway as you would be guilty of assault with a deadly weapon, or agravated assault ( depending on the jurisdiction)

	26-07-2005 01:46									#50
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand I got news for you. You shoot a person 5 times in the leg, they'll likely bleed to death. I know. That wasn't the intent. They weren't supposed to die. Oh gosh, all a mistake.

And if he dies-- "attempting" to do something is irrelevant-- someone is dead and you shot them-- Assuming mental capacity and no self-defense possibilities, if the shooting is proven, all the defense has is questions as to intent.

My crim. is very rusty but my recollection is that if you intended ie planned to do the violent act which caused the death, thats murder regardless of whether the death was what you wanted as the consequence. You could get it down to manslaughter if it was a
'spur of the moment' thing

In Canada "murder " includes acts meant

to cause him bodily harm that he knows is likely to cause his death, and is reckless whether death ensues or not;


IT also includes


c) where a person, for an unlawful object, does anything that he knows or ought to know is likely to cause death, and thereby causes death to a human being, notwithstanding that he desires to effect his object without causing death or bodily harm to any human being.

	26-07-2005 02:21									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Pyrodrew So you're saying you think the 4 London terrorists who failed with their bomb attempts should be at most arrested for only public disturbance or some minor crime... since they might have known it would fail and were just doing a prank? Is this thread just a troll?

They're obviously unindicted co-combatants! Gitmo-ize them I say. Hey, don't you Brits still own the island you stashed Napoleon away on? How about sending them there forever?

	26-07-2005 02:21									#52
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quote: My crim. is very rusty but my recollection is that if you intended ie planned to do the violent act which caused the death, thats murder regardless of whether the death was what you wanted as the consequence.

You are correct. It's reckless indifference to human life or intent to inflict a great bodily injury (that leads to death).

	26-07-2005 03:48									#53
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This is attempted murder:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.a...55E1702,00.html

quote: Jeffrey Cameron Fitzhenry, 17, was convicted today. The shooting on April 29 left the 16-year-old girl a quadriplegic, and the foetus was declared dead three days later.

Would it also be attempted murder to throw fifty matchcars at her face? What about if you do it while saying "I want you dead"?

Here we'd have intent but not the means. On the other hand, shooting a guy in the leg to incapacitate (but who later bleeds out) displays means but not intent.

Are both attempted murders?

	26-07-2005 04:02									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf This is attempted murder: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.a...55E1702,00.html Would it also be attempted murder to throw fifty matchcars at her face? What about if you do it while saying "I want you dead"? Here we'd have intent but not the means. On the other hand, shooting a guy in the leg to incapacitate (but who later bleeds out) displays means but not intent. Are both attempted murders?

NO-- the guy that bleeds out is dead so its a murder--
no attempt about it

As for the matchcars example -- lets make it more ludicrous and make it soft marshmallows-- technically you are committing an assault/batter but with no possibility at all of causing death so no attempted murder---

	26-07-2005 04:13									#55
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Wiggy! Quit while your ahead!

nm

Too late....

	26-07-2005 04:20									#56
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Back to the poisoned drink example.

If I remove it before you drink it, then there's no crime?

Then where's the wrong in shooting five times, missing horribly, and then moving on?

	26-07-2005 05:05									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf Back to the poisoned drink example. If I remove it before you drink it, then there's no crime? Then where's the wrong in shooting five times, missing horribly, and then moving on?

]

If you shoot, you at that moment were trying to cause my death. The fact of missing is irrelevant to the fact that you tried.

If you lay a poisoned drink at my place setting and then remove it before I arrive, you never carried through on the attempt. To be similar to the shooting example, you would have to leave it there hoping I'd drink it but lets say I picked it up and promptly dropped it on the floor. Attempted murder!

Failing doesn't change the fact that you made the attempt.

If you take away the poisoned drink, you never made the attempt. It would be the same as if you pulled the gun to shoot me and then tossed it out the window

	26-07-2005 05:23									#58
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quote: ets say I picked it up and promptly dropped it on the floor

Or if you pick it up and then he gets scared and knocks it out of your hand, it's attempted murder as well. His abandonment doesn't cure it.

	26-07-2005 05:37									#59
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Since we're debating hypotheticals to the most pathetic rant in the history of Apolyton...

I have gas. I fart like there's no tomorrow, in an enclosed air-tight room. My worst enemy walks through the door. Seeing this, not caring about my fate, I light a match.

Attempted murder?

(PS: I need to know quick!)

	26-07-2005 05:42									#60
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Being a wanabe murderer, I think that the worst thing is that I havent commited what I want to do.

Do I wan't to be treated nicer if I don't succed - yes, of couse, that will make it easier to make the next attempt.

Ohh, I regret - remove all killing devices - well, if noone remarks, it's good. If someone remarks, I'm ****ed - I tried to kill someone and that society displases - which is reasonable - I had reason, I had the means it just didn't work.

One thing is if I did it for personal reasons - I hated the guy because he had "robbed" my woman - another and totally unexcusable would be if it was of political or superstitious reasons - actually, I can't find any excuses that should reduce the punishment.