25-07-2005 22:11									#1
	What's Wrong With Attempted Murder? Got spare money?

Should the law really punish attempted crimes? Should those punishments differ from successful crimes?

Criminal punishment only inflicts damages on the criminal equall to the damage they inflicted on society. In an attempted crime, there is no damage so there should be no punishment.

We also need to define what an attempt is. If I create what I think is a poisonous drink and give it to you, but in fact it is harmless, did I attempt to murder you? There is no harm, but my dirty little secret is that I tried to kill you.

Poker players:: Should the law be based on the results of the act?

Any action we commit can have a variety of outcomes. Should the law look at the average result and punish based on that outcome? The maximum possible result? The 70th percentile? If we ignore the actual results what should our metric of punishment be?

Prior to the final act, there is no attempt. If I try to poision your drink, but I take it away before you drink it, I did not try to kill you. The crime was correctable and I corrected it. Had I been arrested beforehand, I should not be allowed to claim I was going to. But the act of reversing the act should be a defense to the crime.

Pre-crime

	25-07-2005 22:14									#2
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Ah, taking the argument against the concept of hate crime to its logical conclusion of eliminating all consideration of motive/mens rea, I see. Carry on.

	25-07-2005 22:15									#3
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another drunk thread

	25-07-2005 22:15									#4
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quote: Should the law really punish attempted crimes?

Yes.

quote: We also need to define what an attempt is.

We have, in great detail.

quote: If I create what I think is a poisonous drink and give it to you, but in fact it is harmless, did I attempt to murder you?

Yes.

quote: But the act of reversing the act should be a defense to the crime.

It can be.

	25-07-2005 22:17									#5
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun another drunk thread

Given the poster, how can you tell?

	25-07-2005 22:17									#6
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good point

	25-07-2005 22:18									#7
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Why should we reward attempted criminals for failure? Nay, I say!

	25-07-2005 22:20									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie Why should we reward attempted criminals for failure? Nay, I say!

Why punish criminals for having second thoughts? You can't prove intent.

And, Imran, if there's a video of me throwing a bomb into your house and then taking it out later, under current law I have no defense.

	25-07-2005 22:26									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf Why punish criminals for having second thoughts?

We don't punish the second thoughts-- What gets punished is the original thought when it manifests itself as an action.


If you point a gun at me and fire it, that could be attempted murder. But maybe not. If you intentionally pointed it so as to shoot off a portion of my foot, it would be Assualt of some variety, while if you INTENDED to miss the charges would be something else again.


All in all I am quire satisfied that "attempted" crimes be charged and punished severely

	25-07-2005 22:29									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf You can't prove intent.

So you believe that first-degree murder should be legally equivalent to involuntary manslaughter?

	25-07-2005 22:29									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf And, Imran, if there's a video of me throwing a bomb into your house and then taking it out later, under current law I have no defense.

Why not? If you knew the bomb was set to go off in 30 minutes and you retrieved it 20 minutes before the deadline, I see no attempted murder there. I would find you guilty of tresspass to property and probably something along the lines of reckless endangerment ( it is inherently dangerous to throw explosives)

	25-07-2005 22:30									#12
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When there's no harm, what the hell could the intent be? To test someone's defenses?

	25-07-2005 22:32									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Why not? If you knew the bomb was set to go off in 30 minutes and you retrieved it 20 minutes before the deadline, I see no attempted murder there. I would find you guilty of tresspass to property and probably something along the lines of reckless endangerment ( it is inherently dangerous to throw explosives)

http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/m052.htm
MURDER, ATTEMPTED - In order for a person to be found guilty of attempted murder the government must prove:

First, acting deliberately and intentionally or recklessly with extreme disregard for human life, the person attempted to kill someone; and the person did something that was a substantial step toward committing the crime. [Mere preparation is not a substantial step toward committing a crime.]

	25-07-2005 22:35									#14
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And throwing a bomb into somebody's house is not a "substantial step"?

	25-07-2005 22:36									#15
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It is under current law, but we can all see it is silly to punish someone for attempting to do something in the future. For all you know the bomb was a prank that I knew I would remove.

	25-07-2005 22:41									#16
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quote: Should the law really punish attempted crimes? If I create what I think is a poisonous drink and give it to you, but in fact it is harmless, did I attempt to murder you?

So you're saying you think the 4 London terrorists who failed with their bomb attempts should be at most arrested for only public disturbance or some minor crime... since they might have known it would fail and were just doing a prank?

Is this thread just a troll?

	25-07-2005 22:45									#17
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Their attacks had a very high probability of success. I am trying to see if there is some sort of standard for intent.

	25-07-2005 22:46									#18
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9/10

So what have you been charged with?

	25-07-2005 22:50									#19
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Being a maroon?

	25-07-2005 22:54									#20
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****, that's gone well beyond 'attempted'.

	25-07-2005 22:58									#21
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True.

	25-07-2005 23:01									#22
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There's a couple of points to make here.
1) The "attempt" suggests a failure.
2) Since when are people rewarded for failing?

	25-07-2005 23:06									#23
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Attempted murder can be repeated and eventually successful if not punished.

	25-07-2005 23:06									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf When there's no harm, what the hell could the intent be? To test someone's defenses?

You fire a gun at me fully wishing to kill me. You miss. I come to absolutely no harm but you should be charged with attempted murder.



Second case-- you think you want to kill me. You buy a gun, load it and bring it to where I will be. But you never pull it out or fire it. No crime at all unless there are concealed weapon laws or you bought it illegally

	25-07-2005 23:12									#25
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Ask for a cup of coffee, then secretly set the video player in reverse. It will seem like Imran is the one hurling a bomb at you. After you've been polite enough to deliver it by hand at his house.

And of course, always remember to walk away backwards from surveillance cameras.

	25-07-2005 23:18									#26
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How about contracting for a killer and the contract killer is an FBI agent running a sting operation? Your intent is to kill but it's never going to happen.

	25-07-2005 23:21									#27
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nm

	25-07-2005 23:25									#28
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quote: Originally posted by rah How about contracting for a killer and the contract killer is an FBI agent running a sting operation? Your intent is to kill but it's never going to happen.

Again attempted murder-- Its the same as if I pull the trigger on a defective gun but I don't know its defective. I intend to put actions in motion that will result in someones death and I initiate such actions. The fact that some intervening fact means the attempt is doomed to failure is irrelevant.

and I dispute the assertion that you can't "prove intent". Courts assess intent all the time

	26-07-2005 00:14									#29
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Being a maroon?

You win the prize for the correct answer.

	26-07-2005 00:15									#30
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Naw, The Ben noted that we're talking about attempted crimes, not crimes that are wantonly successful.