26-07-2005 22:46									#1
	Womende Pengyou, Mr. Mugabe Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Mugabe signs aid deal with China Zimbabwean President Robert Mugabe has signed a deal with his Chinese counterpart Hu Jintao in Beijing. The details have not been made public but China was expected to seek mineral and other trade concessions in exchange for economic help. ..... China has promised to help Zimbabwe and to not interfere in "internal affairs". China "trusts Zimbabwe's government and people have the ability to deal properly with their own matters", a foreign ministry statement said. .... The ties between China and Mr Mugabe date back to the 1970s war of independence, when fighters from his Zanu party were armed by the Chinese. After being accused of rigging elections and oppressing the opposition, Mr Mugabe is subject to a travel ban in the European Union and the United States.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4713961.stm

Yet another in a string of Chinese trade and development agreements with represive regimes such as

SUDAN
IRAN
MYANMAR
NORTH KOREA

To what extent are diplomatic and economic sanctions effective if one major player refuses to participate?

To what degree can major economic powers be encouraged to support sanctions?

Is there some other, better alternative?

	26-07-2005 23:04									#2
	Not to worry Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

In 20 to 50 years, all these deals will bite China in the ass.

	26-07-2005 23:07									#3
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pchang has a good point. China had all sorts of energy deals with Saddam, as I recall. Didn't do them any good once the slate was wiped clean.

	26-07-2005 23:10									#4
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As if western corporations don't do the same thing.

Lame troll.

But watch out, those evil yellow fiends are going to open up opium dens and sell our women into prostitution!!!!!!!

	26-07-2005 23:13									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon But watch out, those evil yellow fiends are going to open up opium dens and sell our women into prostitution!!!!!!!

Cool.

When?

	26-07-2005 23:14									#6
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Hello UR.

	26-07-2005 23:21									#7
	Get a bigger avatar today!

UR as an opium den proprietor somehow just doesn't fit.

	26-07-2005 23:43									#8
	Remove this text

DanS:
I specifically left Iraq, Cuba, and Veneuela off the list, as there may be policy / perception differences between the US and Europe, Japan, etc. regarding these countires. I know of no such differences between the US and Europe, Japan, etc regarding the countries I mentioned.

quote: Originally posted by Agathon As if western corporations don't do the same thing.

Link please? Any examples of US corporations would especially help your case.

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Lame troll.

Legitimate questions. Care to answer?

quote: Originally posted by Agathon But watch out, those evil yellow fiends are going to open up opium dens and sell our women into prostitution!!!!!!!

If you knew anything about me you would realize exactly how stupid that comment is.

	26-07-2005 23:59									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon As if western corporations don't do the same thing. Lame troll. But watch out, those evil yellow fiends are going to open up opium dens and sell our women into prostitution!!!!!!!

That's sort of pchang's point. The US has done the same thing and look what is happening to it now. I find it strange that you are so quick to condemn "western corporations" for it, but when China is criticized for the same action you always (yes, always) hide behind the "China is teh evil" response. Which, btw, I have yet to see any real base for this other than something you made up and are trying to propagate. So why the double standard?

	27-07-2005 00:09									#10
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AS: Even controlling for those areas where there may be some disagreement, I think pchang's point is still valid. China does a deal with the Sudanese government, but do we really think that China will be able to collect on that investment in the end?

	27-07-2005 00:12									#11
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi That's sort of pchang's point. The US has done the same thing and look what is happening to it now. I find it strange that you are so quick to condemn "western corporations" for it, but when China is criticized for the same action you always (yes, always) hide behind the "China is teh evil" response. Which, btw, I have yet to see any real base for this other than something you made up and are trying to propagate. So why the double standard?

Given that I'm a wild eyed communist who advocates the overthrow of all governments, I fail to see any inconsistency.

I think it sucks that people have anything to do with Mugabe the scumbag, but at least the Chinese aren't hypocrites. I expect better from our lot, the same way I expect Israel to conform to a higher standard of behaviour than its opponents. We're democracies, we are supposed to do better.

	27-07-2005 00:18									#12
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Hu Jintao shi wo de hen hao pengyou

	27-07-2005 00:39									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Given that I'm a wild eyed communist who advocates the overthrow of all governments, I fail to see any inconsistency. I think it sucks that people have anything to do with Mugabe the scumbag, but at least the Chinese aren't hypocrites. I expect better from our lot, the same way I expect Israel to conform to a higher standard of behaviour than its opponents. We're democracies, we are supposed to do better.

That's where we differ. I expect better from everyone.

	27-07-2005 00:43									#14
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the problem is that when youve got countries like china signing treaties with dictators, it reduces the incentive for the dictators to change their style.

	27-07-2005 00:52									#15
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Even controlling for those areas where there may be some disagreement, I think pchang's point is still valid. China does a deal with the Sudanese government, but do we really think that China will be able to collect on that investment in the end?

China may not fully collect on their investment, and they may lose political capital in doing so. I am sure the Chinese have taken both factors into account in making their decisions. But given that, how do you bring about change if the Chinese (or anybody else for that matter) are willing to make deals with the current regime?

	27-07-2005 01:08									#16
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Is China interested in re-establishing a bipolar world?

	27-07-2005 01:12									#17
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Anyone out there who isn't?

	27-07-2005 01:14									#18
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Sane people?

	27-07-2005 01:16									#19
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Excuse me? Bipolarity has brought the highest security to the world so far.

	27-07-2005 01:30									#20
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Lithium is quite good at treating bipolarity

	27-07-2005 01:40									#21
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Plutonium and Uranium are quite good to keep it up I hear.

	27-07-2005 01:45									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthy Excuse me? Bipolarity has brought the highest security to the world so far.

Because everything was just great back when we had the USSR.

	27-07-2005 01:47									#23
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I think you've got some intellectual problems dude. Finish school before you want to debate with me, boy.

	27-07-2005 02:10									#25
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How do you call those arguments in English where you say a line that allegedly kills the debate in your favour?

edit: yeah, killer phrase

	01-08-2005 19:22									#26
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A follow up. Apparently, the deal with China wasn't rich enough for Mugabe. The life of a dictator must be very difficult indeed...

quote: China deal 'too small' for Mugabe Mr Mugabe went to China last week hoping for help repaying a $300m debt to the IMF, but Beijing granted him only $6m for grain imports, they say. Observers say Zimbabwe will again be looking to South Africa for help. South Africa is expected to make any assistance to Zimbabwe conditional on improvements in human rights. Shortages Zimbabwe faces expulsion from the IMF if it cannot repay its debt. The Sunday Independent and Business Day newspapers both reported that Mr Mugabe had returned from China "almost empty-handed". During a week-long trip to China, Mr Mugabe signed a trade deal with President Hu Jintao but the details were not made public. A BBC correspondent in Beijing says it was not a major deal. One Zimbabwean observer told the BBC that the platinum concessions offered by Zimbabwe were not a sufficient incentive for China to grant funds on the scale requested by Mr Mugabe. South African officials confirmed last month that South Africa and Zimbabwe had discussed a loan request from Zimbabwe. Some reports said Mr Mugabe was seeking as much as $1bn from South Africa. South Africa is likely to insist that as a condition of loans, the Zimbabwe government engage in dialogue with the political opposition, and halt the housing demolitions which, according to the UN, have left 700,000 without shelter in recent months. Aid convoy On Monday, the South African Council of Churches launched an aid operation to Zimbabwe, as trucks carrying 220,000 rand ($37,000) worth of food and blankets left Johannesburg heading for the Zimbabwean border. The churches are also trying to put political pressure on Mr Mugabe. The Anglican Archbishop of Cape Town Njonkulu Ndungane said the operation had the support of the South African government and President Thabo Mbeki. "I am confident we are engaging with the president in terms of a common strategy on Zimbabwe," the archbishop said. "Zimbabwe has moved from one crisis to another and we are all interested in resolving the long-term political and economic problems in Zimbabwe." Mr Mbeki has always been reluctant to publicly criticise Mr Mugabe's rule. Following a failed harvest, Zimbabwe is suffering food shortages. It has been short of foreign currency for imports such as fuel for several years. Mr Mugabe's critics say his seizure of white-owned land have wrecked the country's agriculture-based economy. He blames his problems on a western plot.

	01-08-2005 19:36									#27
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Azania should annex Zimbabwe.