28-07-2005 11:37									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Kalius Get a bomb and send high-voltage electricity through it. Go on. Dare ya.

are electricity stun guns the only availiable non-lethal guns?

	28-07-2005 11:42									#32
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Send in the F-16s, miss and blow up a school full of children?

this reminds of the Team America movie seuqences where Paris and the Pyramids are demolished while chasing terrorists

	28-07-2005 12:30									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by MarkG are electricity stun guns the only availiable non-lethal guns?

Ok then, go and hit a bomb with a baton, a water pistol, rubber bullets. Dare ya.

	28-07-2005 13:43									#34
	Increase Your PM Length

any kind of anesthetic bullets in existance in this world?

	28-07-2005 13:50									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi It doesn't compare. In this case, he was caught offguard and it wasn't likely he had an explosives belt on him. For the other guy there was a more reasonable likelidhood he was about to blow himself and alot of innocent people up.

Exactly.

	28-07-2005 14:00									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: any kind of anesthetic bullets in existance in this world?

They tend to rupture matter. Go on, shoot a bomb with a anaesthetic bullet. Dare ya.

	28-07-2005 14:04									#37
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

ok they didn't know at the time

but there was no bomb. and if there was one, it had no business being there. they could have picked him of the street long before he entered the subway.
in the given circumstances, could they have acted differently ? - no, i don't think so.
did they **** up ? - hell yes.
has somebody got to pay the price for **** ups like this ? - hell yes.
that's the way it goes.

and as for the use of tasers : in his home yes.
out on the street not surrounded by other people : yes
in a crowded subway : i don't think so.
but then again : shoot him 8 times ? frustration i say

	28-07-2005 16:56									#38
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Kalius They tend to rupture matter. Go on, shoot a bomb with a anaesthetic bullet. Dare ya.

his entire body was a bomb?

	28-07-2005 17:21									#39
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

we can't discount the possibility he'd taken some kind of chemical that was flowing throughout his body and was storing an activator compound in his cheek, that if he had swallowed would have mixed with the chemical and made it explode, making him into a literal suicide bomber.

	28-07-2005 18:12									#40
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Gibsie we can't discount the possibility he'd taken some kind of chemical that was flowing throughout his body and was storing an activator compound in his cheek, that if he had swallowed would have mixed with the chemical and made it explode, making him into a literal suicide bomber.

I think we probably can.

	28-07-2005 18:14									#41
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Bereta_Eder Doesn't matter if a country is safe, if it doesn't follow our line we'll put out a traveling advisory anyway and attack its tourism etc. Pretty thuggish methodes, oh and completely without result except maybe for making your policies look even more foolish. But as I said God seems to have an overdeveloped sense of irony

Thuggish? Honey, it's the height of subtlety and grace. Thuggish would be blowing up your capital.

	28-07-2005 18:19									#42
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse That was a troll, son...

Yep, cuz in reality they wouldn't miss. They'd be deliberately dropping bombs on a school full of children because the principal was a leader of Hamas.

	28-07-2005 18:21									#43
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by MarkG are electricity stun guns the only availiable non-lethal guns?

No, but little else will stop a person from detonating a bomb. A taser may not work either, if he's holding the trigger when he get's hit, since he'll clench his fists. BOOM!

You seem to think that these bombs aren't made to go off easily. The Palestinian bombers have hand triggers. They carry it in their hand. All they have to do is squeeze. You might want to keep such things in mind.

	28-07-2005 18:22									#44
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Yep, cuz in reality they wouldn't miss. They'd be deliberately dropping bombs on a school full of children because the principal was a leader of Hamas.

Now THAT was a troll. 2/10.

	28-07-2005 18:24									#45
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Now THAT was a troll. 2/10.

Yes, but historically based. They dromped a bomb on a Hamas leader's house, and killed nine children. IIRC, they didn't get the leader.

	28-07-2005 18:24									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

pardon, but does a taser work as fast and as reliably as a bullet? I presume that is a principle reason why its not used in a suicide bombing situation. And, indeed, why it doesnt generally substitute for firearms.

	28-07-2005 18:26									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Tasers work rather instantainously. But, the subject was wearing a bulky coat, so they probably would have had to go for a leg shot, while he was running. He was not a good candidate for a taser shot.

	28-07-2005 18:26									#48
	Put an end to popups!

Yes but some day there will be stunt phazers.

	28-07-2005 18:29									#49
	Got spare money?

Don't tazers have a wire though? If you aim for the leg, you might also accidentally trip them up, Empire Strikes Back-stylee...

	28-07-2005 18:29									#50
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Yes, but historically based. They dromped a bomb on a Hamas leader's house, and killed nine children. IIRC, they didn't get the leader.

Well then, im sure you'll applaud the many recent times that theyve managed to get a Hamas or IJ leader without killing any civilians. Theyve had a pretty good string of clean hits.

And of course in the last few months they stopped attacking Hamas or IJ leaders at all. For which IJ rewarded them by sending suicide bombers into Israel. When Israel then went after an IJ cell, and killed some IJ without killing civies, Hamas expressed its appreciation for Israeli restraint by firing mortars from Gaza into Israel, and killing Israelis. When Abbas sent PA troops, not to disarm Hamas, but simply to stop the firing of mortars, Hamas fired back at the PA troops and accused Abbas of disrupting the Hudna.


And yet much of the world thinks of Hamas as legitimate national resistance.


Now, may we return to the question of using tasers?

	28-07-2005 18:30									#51
	Re: Re: "A Taser stun gun was used by officers arresting Omar" Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Are you even aware that people have died by this method? Probably not, or ignoring. Either way...

Care to prove this? I have heard of nermous claims of this but have as yet to hear of one that was proven so. The death is attributed to some other cause. The only lasting effect, and the most dangerous one, is the fall. You could easily hit your head. Other than that, its perfectly safe. I hurts like the dickens, but won't cause any permenant damage (Oh, it might leave a couple of small burn marks, but that is all). I have been shot twice now with no ill effects.

	28-07-2005 18:34									#52
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Gibsie Don't tazers have a wire though? If you aim for the leg, you might also accidentally trip them up, Empire Strikes Back-stylee...

Yes, they do, but they are very thin and break easily. They also have a limited range of about 15-20 feet.

	28-07-2005 18:40									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: I have been shot twice now with no ill effects.

Are you some kind of tazer testperson?

	28-07-2005 18:44									#54
	Re: Re: Re: "A Taser stun gun was used by officers arresting Omar" Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Donegeal Care to prove this? I have heard of nermous claims of this but have as yet to hear of one that was proven so. The death is attributed to some other cause.

Like a bad heart? My understanding is that those who die are generally suffering from some other ailment at the time. While I certainly approve most heartily of the police using non-lethal methods to bring down dangerous people, there is the danger that because of it's non-lethality and ease of use, the police are more likely to resort to tasering someone than using other, less dangerous methods.

Why spend a half an hour talking a guy down? Taser his ass and cuff him in two minutes.

	28-07-2005 18:45									#55
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by DanielXY Are you some kind of tazer testperson?

Most police have the equipment tested on them so they know what it's effects are.

	28-07-2005 19:17									#56
	Get a bigger avatar today!

The Austin PD is taser-happy. IIRC, it uses tasers in 23% of use of force incidents. And tasers are by no means innocuous, since some 80 people have died in the past few years due to police use of tasers.

	28-07-2005 19:20									#57
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: A Taser stun gun was used by officers arresting Omar, 21

Off by a few months.

	28-07-2005 19:49									#58
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Ramo The Austin PD is taser-happy. IIRC, it uses tasers in 23% of use of force incidents. And tasers are by no means innocuous, since some 80 people have died in the past few years due to police use of tasers.

No, they died because of some other factor, as even Che agreed with (mostly) in his post (I'll argue that later, Che ). Most likely from some type of drug overdose.

And it might seem to people that police are TAZER happy, but try to think from their point of view (or at least mine).

I don't want to get hurt. That is my number one concern. I want to make it home at the end of my shift and not have to go to the hospital (or morgue). So, confronted with a guy who wants to fight, I would want to Taze them so I don't get hurt. Where or not I could depends on departmental policy. And what departmental policy boils down to is where TAZERs appear on the Force Option Continuum:

1. Presence (75% of Police work is just being seen)
2. Verbal Control (Up to and including direct orders)
3. Open Hand Control (Defense And Arrest Tactics)
4. Intermediate Weapon (Batton, OC Spray, beanbag guns, etc)
5. Leathal Force (including knife, which some officers carry)

Now one would think that a TAZER would naturally fall into the Intermediate Weapon catagory, but then the arguements of officer safety come into play and it becomes a bit of a mess as to when to deploy and when not to. Policy is set up as a guideline, but it cannot cover the entire spectrum of what we run into, so there is a good deal of personal judgement involved. And then, of course, after every deployment comes the scrutiny of hindsight.

So, like I said, I want to go home at the end of my shift safely. That is my number one priority. If I think I could get hurt fighing with some one, I will Taze them in order to protect myself.

Okay, Che, your turn. I have no specific evidence contrary to your claim, but I do have a few that are close. When training for the TAZER, it was told to us that it would not effect a pacemaker. So in that instance, you are incorect. Now if you have an undignosed bad heart, then I could see how that MIGHT be a problem, but only if the prongs were to strike so the volts go through the heart area (ie: You get hit in the legs/stomache area, it won't make any difference. Even if you get hit in the chest, it won't matter unless the path of least resistance is through the heart, which I don't think would happen very often (as I think it would be easier to go through the chest muscles)). Anyway, I'd have to look up some info to give you numbers on that and I just don't want to (day off and all...).

	28-07-2005 20:37									#59
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Donegeal No, they died because of some other factor, as even Che agreed with (mostly) in his post (I'll argue that later, Che ). Most likely from some type of drug overdose.

Bullshit. It is possible for there to be more than one cause of death, you know.

It's almost certain that in most of the cases of taser deaths that if EITHER the person had been in normal health (instead of being on drugs or having prior heart conditions etc) OR had not been shot with a taser then they would not have died.

Only a blind man (either willfully or not) could argue otherwise, given the body of evidence.

	28-07-2005 20:45									#60
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

What about using those paintball thingies and crying "you're dead, man!"