28-07-2005 18:12									#1
	MY-2181 - Planning & Execution thread Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

WOW - turn's up!!

	28-07-2005 18:22									#2
	Got spare money?

A couple of early observations:

Angels have played along and left the last PK base without any of their units in it - ripe for us to take

but

They also have placed a couple of their probes (drop probes, no less) onb the continent, ready for action against us. See screenie below

So we must wait until we can get probe defenders in place before taking that last base

Attachment: 2181 - angels' probes.gif
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	28-07-2005 18:34									#3
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Looks like a good enough excuse to build the Ascetivc Virtues to me.

Btw, personally I'd recommend gifting the bases closest to the Angels to the University, to make us less vulnerable to infiltration. Which this incident proves we are.

	28-07-2005 18:53									#4
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Some other quick observations & comments:

• Arcadia University: Cloud cover event - loss of 1 energy per square per turn for ten turns. Crippled psych contribution to the base resulting in another drone, so have changed 2 workers to doctors
  
• Gythium Harbour - maxxed out now at seven population (1 of them a drone). Is producing a former (1 turn) now, but we could use its mineral crawler plus some credits to MM a hab complex there if we want (or just stabilize at size 7 for the time being)
  
• Bunker-112 - we can rush a Crypteia there for 12 credits - I suggest we do
  
• Messena - likewise has reached size 7 and needs a hab complex for further growth
  
• Rio Grande needs a Creche - it's size 3 with nut surplusses
  
• with those Angels probes nearby, I finished moving the Crypteia en-route to ARC into the base to take up covert defense duties there
  
• do we go ahead and instabuild (MM'ing) the Hybrid Forest at Fort Soup, using the flying gin freighter? (or save that for an eventual SP)?
  
• the Gaians have started the Longevity Vaccine - that'd have been a nice one for us (2 less drones at every base when running Planned) - we're getting left behind in those mid-game SP's
  
• the PK colony pod is right next to UN High Commission (but we don't have a probe team within range) I suggest that we rush the Crypteia there (13 credits) and try to subvert it next turn - that'd mean postponing the capture of the last PK base for 1 turn, but I think we need to do that anyway to give us time to get probe defenders in place
  
• the PK's have changed from the Neural Amplifier to a Penetrator (overbuilt, so it'll commission next year) - dare we send the longstrider at Health Authority to sabotage production? (if successful, he'll be returned to Health Authority anyway, but if unsuccessful then that leaves the base vulnerable to Angels' actions
  
• I suggest that we send the 3 noodles that are around Temple back home by roundabout routes to see what other nasties the Angels might be hiding

	28-07-2005 19:04									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Looks like a good enough excuse to build the Ascetivc Virtues to me.

And this raises a point - do we now care what our reputation is? (assuming that we're role playing, and that any animosity doesn't carry forward into other PBEMs by the Angels' team members against us)

Technically, their probes are in neutral territory - and they didn't provoke us by landing their noodle in the PK base

And do they feel strong enough to take us on? I mean, if we do instabuild the Ascetic Virtues, is that cause enough for them to declare vendetta on us?

But back to the "do we care?" question. I'm thinking that we've been ostracized by the other 3 teams - no one is talking to us and no-one will trade with us, so why not a "what the heck" attitude. We're the bad boys so we might as well act in character.

I say we just instabuild the AV. We'd catapult to +2 POLICE which means that 3 cdf's could quell 6 drones in a base, and for those with the infrastructure already, could go to size 9 with no problem

	28-07-2005 19:15									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie [*]the PK colony pod is right next to UN High Commission (but we don't have a probe team within range) I suggest that we rush the Crypteia there (13 credits) and try to subvert it next turn - that'd mean postponing the capture of the last PK base for 1 turn, but I think we need to do that anyway to give us time to get probe defenders in place

I don't understand. Why mindcontrol a colony pod when it's much cheaper to build one?

	28-07-2005 19:17									#7
	Got spare money?

what's the cost of mc'ing a CP? (I've never done it, so was assuming it'd be like a scout - 50 credits or so)

If it's over 100, then I agree - but the advantage of that one is that's in a great position for instabuilding a new base - versus the time it'd take to get one built and moving into unoccupied territory

	28-07-2005 19:19									#8
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IIRC colony pods are always expensive to MC, even when far away from the HQ. Anyway, could easily be tested in the simulator of course. Just set the PK cash reserves up to date, and remove their HQ.

	28-07-2005 19:23									#9
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I say build the Ascetic Virtues.

As to the Colony Pod, we simply have the cash to pick it up, granting us a new base that much earlier.

	28-07-2005 19:27									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 As to the Colony Pod, we simply have the cash to pick it up, granting us a new base that much earlier.

We also have the resources to build one ourselves, and use the cash we saved for something else.
Even if mindcontrolling a CP would give us a base a few turns earlier, would the resources gained by having that base a few turns earlier outweight the extra cost of mindcontrolling the unit?

	28-07-2005 19:42									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Even if mindcontrolling a CP would give us a base a few turns earlier, would the resources gained by having that base a few turns earlier outweight the extra cost of mindcontrolling the unit?

If you want to cout the dollars, no, not very soon. Over time they would (remember the build that would not have to be delayed somewhere).

But that is beside the point, which is: We are ranking in cash. I find it better to spend it, instead of holding that ridiculously big treasury, even if the things bought do not give big immediate gains. Do we have any necessary rushes/upgrades that would take the cost of controlling that Colony Pod? I suppose the answer is "no".

	28-07-2005 19:51									#12
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If you want, I could take a look at the save and identify some things that we can hurry and will give us immediate gains?

	28-07-2005 19:58									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac If you want, I could take a look at the save and identify some things that we can hurry and will give us immediate gains?

I wouldn't mind some observations

	28-07-2005 22:11									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac If you want, I could take a look at the save and identify some things that we can hurry and will give us immediate gains?

I do. I think we should burn 3/4 of our reserves, but even 1/2 would be pretty good.

	28-07-2005 23:00									#15
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I agree that we should burn up some reserves - some suggestions wouyld be:

• upgrade some crawlers to synthmetal ECM Trance
  
• rush Crypteia wherever we have one in build - the Angels' drop probes aren't going to go away
  
• rush facilities like creches, rec commons and hab complexes
  
• upgrade all our airforce to missile
  
• upgrade our navy to missile syntharmour

	28-07-2005 23:07									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac If you want, I could take a look at the save and identify some things that we can hurry and will give us immediate gains?

Maniac- would you be able to play this turn?

It's the Canadian long weekend and I'm on a golfing junket for the weekend with my laptop, but forgot my external keyboard & mouse, and it's a pain in the butt to use the alpha switch keys or the sensor for so many moves (it's ok for a PBEM where it's 2120 or something, but the ACDG is really complicated now)

I'll be back at ny desktop by Monday evening, but by then it'll be too late.

The only move I made before leaving was to continue the crypteia's journey to ARC, and switch a couple of workers at the drone-rioting bases to doctors - they'll be self evident

I do have the turn downloaded onto my laptop, so can do screenies, comment and even run parallel simulations for diplo purposes, as nothing hangs on my making a wrong movement entry

	28-07-2005 23:17									#17
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Here's an idea regarding the drop probes and Angel diplomacy: We can capture the remaining PK base, which will then extend our territory over the rest of the continent. Thus, the Angels' probe will be in OUR territory, making it perfectly legal to kill off the probe with a needlejet or something. Then, if they do decide to declare war over it, we go ahead and build the AV. That way we can at least seem somewhat justified in what we are doing, and maybe the others will stay out of it for a little bit longer. Of course, if we decided to take this course, we need to be prepared to rumble with the Angels.

Edit: Oh, wait, the probes are already in our territory. We could just go ahead an kill them now, then. Or maybe we could just interrogate them and send the probes back! We could send a message along the lines of:

"We regret to inform you that your drop probes in Spartan Arcadian territory have been neutralized/interrogated and sent back to Angel territory. Rest assured this is no sign of aggressive Spartan intentions. We greatly appreciate your mindfulness of our concerns regarding the Angel needlejet that srecently trayed into Spartan territory, and we hope that our cordial relations continue. You must understand, however, that we find the presence of foreign probes on Spartan soil to be unacceptable under any circumstances whatsoever. Thank you for your understanding."

Last edited by Zeiter on 28-07-2005 at 23:29

	28-07-2005 23:44									#18
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unfortunately the game doesn't recognize where they are at as being in Spartan territory (we don't get the option of interrogating them and sending them home - just the option to break treaty and attack them.)

Here are some costs:

• to instabuild a Hybrid Forest at Fort Soup - MM, then fly in the gin freighter - and then revert to the HF 2 minerals short - deploy that new crawler sitting in the base to a forested tile and voila, Hybrid Forest next turn
  
• to instabuild a Research Hospital at AU - MM, then use an AU nut crawler plus the Argos mineral crawler, retire and add 30 credits and a Research Hospital next turn
  
• to instabuild a Research Hospital at Vlad - MM, and use 3 crawlers (the new one in the base plus 2 from the field - reassigning workers to the condensor farm and mine they came from). Builds it exactly next turn with no surplus minerals

	29-07-2005 01:30									#19
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quote: -- to instabuild a Hybrid Forest at Fort Soup - MM, then fly in the gin freighter - and then revert to the HF 2 minerals short - deploy that new crawler sitting in the base to a forested tile and voila, Hybrid Forest next turn --to instabuild a Research Hospital at AU - MM, then use an AU nut crawler plus the Argos mineral crawler, retire and add 30 credits and a Research Hospital next turn --to instabuild a Research Hospital at Vlad - MM, and use 3 crawlers (the new one in the base plus 2 from the field - reassigning workers to the condensor farm and mine they came from). Builds it exactly next turn with no surplus minerals

Wow, they were fast this time!
Now, a few things about the turn:

-- forest expanded at Fort Liberty and Iaci base. Good!
-- The info shows us gaining +59 credits/turn !!! We just cut it to 30% last turn and now it doubles... So, yes, we can do what we want with money.
-- Gaians put a base inside the ring of monoliths.

-- Fort Sup: For me,it's a no-brainer to instabuild the H-Forest now. Then, starting next turn, it'll be considered a superbase, ready for any task.
-- AU. Bad, that cloud haze! It negates a little the advantage of the Hospital (but I remember we need it also for drone control ASAP). I'd say it's a go.
-- Argos. We need a network node to link the coming AA. Argos seems a good place for one.
-- Vladivostok. Would it be reallly efficient to build a Hospital in a base with only 2 lab points (before bonus)? Vlad can churn out 1 former/turn. We spare the crawler for, say, a Tree Farm when the formers will have done their job.

-- I still think Laconia cities severely lack space and terraformation. We could build a hab in Messenia but the output would be...negligible, don't you think? Same with the creche at Fort Buster.
It doesn't mean the Ministry of Infrastructure doesn't support building but I ask for a focus. The sooner we get a superbase over there working as developpement pole, the sooner the best for the region.

-- Grrrr! The Longevity Vaccine! I wonder how long it'll take for the Gaians to build it. In case, we lose it. I'd say we go for the Ascetic Virtues. And I really don't like that drop-probe ON OUR SOIL!

	29-07-2005 02:09									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Technically, their probes are in neutral territory - and they didn't provoke us by landing their noodle in the PK base

I think the probes are a blatant provocation, if we were truly good friends they wouldn't be doing this to us. Didn't we warn them that we weren't going to tolerate any more tricks?

quote: And this raises a point - do we now care what our reputation is?

No. If the Angels won't cooperate with us, noone else will either. It is the new world order that Sparta is alone and the others are secretly plotting against us. We are free to go ahead and violate any deals we have made as we please, including building the AV.

I suggest a vote on building the AV, and I vote yes. Vote yes for a strong Sparta!

quote: (assuming that we're role playing, and that any animosity doesn't carry forward into other PBEMs by the Angels' team members against us)

I take this for granted ... I hope the other players do too.

	29-07-2005 04:22									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Maniac- would you be able to play this turn?

Sure. Though you or someone else would have to fill me in on what has happened these last five years and what our ongoing plans are. I haven't opened a save nor read a turn thread detailed since the beginning of the PK invasion.

	29-07-2005 04:34									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie unfortunately the game doesn't recognize where they are at as being in Spartan territory (we don't get the option of interrogating them and sending them home - just the option to break treaty and attack them.)

Could this be because there are two on the same square?

quote: Also, if we attack the plasma defender at Temple, then the PK's will surely switch again from a noodle to another defender (btw, the odds of sabotaging production of the noodle are just 67% - not worth it IMO)

What's the current plan for the PKs btw? Eliminate them, or leave them that last base so we have some infiltration on the Angels?

quote: Originally posted by Snoddasmannen I think the probes are a blatant provocation, if we were truly good friends they wouldn't be doing this to us. Didn't we warn them that we weren't going to tolerate any more tricks?

One must wonder what their goal is. They have a couple experienced PBEMers, so surely they must know we can see those drop probes sitting there?

Just a thought, could they perhaps be trying to outbluff us? Hoping that we don't want vendetta and thus won't attack the probes? Even if there's just a small chance it could work, it could be worth it with the possible prize of valuable infiltration data.

In any case, if we do nothing, they'll infiltrate us. The veteran Disco Volante can't stop two elite probe teams. Besides simply attacking them, we could station a unit between the probes and our base. No vendetta then. But then again, perhaps this is part of their bluff? Them dropping some probes on our territory could mean that they're willing next turn to declare war on us and destroy and units preventing them from infiltrating us.

	29-07-2005 05:24									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Could this be because there are two on the same square?

Seems like it is. I set up the simulator with just one probe team, and sure enough, when we fly an aircraft out we get the ususal 'eliminate or interrogate them" choice

quote: What's the current plan for the PKs btw? Eliminate them, or leave them that last base so we have some infiltration on the Angels?

I think concensus is to capture the base and hold Lal in our interrogation chambers (maybe give the Angels an excuse to try and mount a rescue via probe action against Sparta Command!!) - the data we are getting is useful, but we still get caught by surprise (eg, their building the Cyborg factory). So better we have it than let is stay on the continent as a possible foothold for the Angels to mount attacks against us in the future

quote: One must wonder what their goal is. They have a couple experienced PBEMers, so surely they must know we can see those drop probes sitting there?

True - but remember I thought that Morgan couldn't see out PTS raid team hiding in the sea fungus - and yet they did

quote: Just a thought, could they perhaps be trying to outbluff us? Hoping that we don't want vendetta and thus won't attack the probes? Even if there's just a small chance it could work, it could be worth it with the possible prize of valuable infiltration data. In any case, if we do nothing, they'll infiltrate us. The veteran Disco Volante can't stop two elite probe teams. Besides simply attacking them, we could station a unit between the probes and our base. No vendetta then. But then again, perhaps this is part of their bluff? Them dropping some probes on our territory could mean that they're willing next turn to declare war on us and destroy and units preventing them from infiltrating us.

I agree. I suggest that it's time we take up the cudgels. After all, we have a massive invasion force in southern Arcadia (I was moving the transport fleet round the Cape of Sol to position it for the inevitable confrontation)

So:

• we delay capturing Temple of Sol for a turn until we can get a longstrider down there (but we can still empty the base of its defender with a B-6 strike)
  
• we destroy the probes on our doorstep
  
• we instabuild the Ascetic Virtues (prolly a better use of the flying gin freighter anyway)
  
• we move into a mass-production of F-6's mode (we know that the Angels have at least 1 penetrator capable of reaching those southern bases
  
• we ready the invasion fleet for Operation JumpJazz
  
• we double crypteia defences where possible

	29-07-2005 06:07									#24
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Note: Ironholm can build the Ascetic Virtues with:

• change production from the crawler to the AV
  
• send in the crawling ginfreighter next door
  
• cash in AU's new crawler
  
• cash in AU's crawler working the condensor farm
  
• cash in one of the 2 Argos mine crawlers
  
• cash in FL's farm/mine crawler (to the immediate south)
  
• after reallocating workers, pay 60 credits

	29-07-2005 06:29									#25
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Is it mandatory for FS to get its hybrid forest THIS turn and not next turn (when it could be built cheaper with some upgraded crawlers)?

	29-07-2005 06:41									#26
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Anyway, I've had a look at the turn. I see lots of popbooming has been done.


I have no idea what the ongoing plans are, so forgive if I'm asking stupid questions or making stupid suggestions.

Anyway, here goes:


How about building a creche in 2NS? Should give more extra production there than a rec tank. Or crawler would also be nice, as I see a mine will soon be built there?

Why is SC1 building a rec commons? Are we planning to popboom that base in the immediate future?

(Micromanager observation for SC1: reduce nutrients production, only two more are needed to fill the nutrient tanks.)

Are we planning to start popbooming Fort Buster this turn? I see it has a rec commons and creche.

Why are we running with 10% psych?


I see some micromanagement thingies that could be done to improve worker and crawler output. Do I have carte blanche to shuffle around with those in our homelands and Northern Arcadia? I could do it tomorrow - now I'm almost off to bed.

Someone else better does all the moves for the military in LaLaLand though, as I have no idea what the current plans are there.


Anyway, I didn't do anything yet. Except one thing. I changed all the formers that were building a mine on a rolling rainy farm towards building a condenser. (If that was completely unwanted, easy for someone else to play the turn, as I haven't done anything else yet.)
The reason is that a farm-mine combo on a rolling rainy tile (or any tile except one with a mineral bonus) is not a very efficient terraformation.
It gives tiles that produce 2-2-0 nut/min/ene, at a cost of 12 former turns.
By comparison, building a farm/solar collector gives 3-1-2 at a cost of 10 former turns. A forest 1-2-1 in 4 turns. And a condenser farm 4-1-0 in 16 turns. More production for less former turns.

	29-07-2005 06:49									#27
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<>

Attachment: acdg3-sparta-2181mid.zip
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	29-07-2005 08:55									#28
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You know what, I'm ready to declare war on the Angels. Let's go! But I have a question: if we destroy those probes, won't the base be left undefended (and prone to Angel air-drop?) If not, then destroy those probes, snag the AV, and let's get ready to rumble!

	29-07-2005 09:36									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Is it mandatory for FS to get its hybrid forest THIS turn and not next turn (when it could be built cheaper with some upgraded crawlers)?

no - not really. the cash seems to be burning a hole in our pockets, though

quote: How about building a creche in 2NS? Should give more extra production there than a rec tank. Or crawler would also be nice, as I see a mine will soon be built there?

We put the recycling tanks there a couple of turns ago when popping a pod - figured it was a decent snag as the base (then) didn't have many minerals - just left it there since. A creche is OK, too, as with the tomcats working there getting nuts won't be a problem - or a crawler, to work the imminent mine about to be started

quote: Why is SC1 building a rec commons? Are we planning to popboom that base in the immediate future?

The thought was to build it up as our Arcadian super city (being the HQ, no energy loss was appealing) The tomcats in that triangle - SC1 - SC2 - GH have a slew of rainy tiles t9o farm/condensor for pop growth (note the trance policeman there, so we don't need to upgrade to a cdf - there's a couple of these around now)

quote: Are we planning to start popbooming Fort Buster this turn? I see it has a rec commons and creche

Yes. Move the Rio grande crawler on 56:14 to 57:15, and then reposition the FB crawler on the forest mineral east onto the vacated 3 nut tile. RG's new crawler can then either work the minerals from the forested mineral tile (or head upriver to the sensor farm tile - if we move a Messena worker from it) or else can rehome to FB and still work the mineral forest tile for FB

quote: Why are we running with 10% psych?

We had drone problems with the larger bases - needed to have the psych kicxk in for the multipliers to work (with growth, new citizens would be drones - as happened with AU and GH, notwithstanding)

quote: I see some micromanagement thingies that could be done to improve worker and crawler output. Do I have carte blanche to shuffle around with those in our homelands and Northern Arcadia? I could do it tomorrow - now I'm almost off to bed.

Feel free - that's what we missed these last few turns, and struggled as best we could

quote: Someone else better does all the moves for the military in LaLaLand though, as I have no idea what the current plans are there

I can prolly handle those even on my laptop - there's not much to do this turn, though, as we can't invade temple (we can take out its garrison unit, though). Other moves contemplated were to take out the spore launcher at Aid Station for the credits, and maybe take out the remaining PK formers with ground or air units.

The Skanky Sileni at Aid Station can destroy those 2 probe teams (and to answer Z's question, there will still be a CDF in the base, plus the Skanky can return after it completes its mission)

	29-07-2005 09:41									#30
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And, Maniac, you're right about the cost of mc'ing a colony pod. per the simulator, it's 306 credits.

So another thing to do militarily is to destroy that colony pod outside UN High Commission. the last thing we want is for another PK base to pop up in our midst