28-07-2005 20:22									#1
	Some gays are taught to hate themselves. Put an end to popups!

I saw this news story on Good Morning America earlier today (Thursday, July 28). Below is the link:

Program for Self-Hatred and Inner Conflict


What comes to my mind when I think of such despicable programs as these, are other historical parallels in where individuals of a minority group are pressured to hate themselves, or be ashamed of part of their identity.


Mulattoes who could almost pass for being white, and who refuse to acknowledge that they are partly black because they fear discrimination and/or they have come to hate "niggers" as much as whites do.

Schools in the late nineteenth century and early twentieth century for Amerindian individuals in which coercive attempts were made by white teachers to destroy Amerindian cultural identity.

In the late 1940s, Dr. Kinsey revealed that women enjoyed having sex and that men were not the only gender to enjoy the pleasure of sexual intercourse. Before this public confrontation with what was taboo beforehand, women were often pressured to feel ashamed that they enjoyed having sex, and had to play the role of the "pure, asexual damsel."

And so today, such despicable societal pressure and bigoted norms are heaped upon gays and some of them cave into this pressure and come to believe that there is something wrong with them because they are gay.

	28-07-2005 20:37									#3
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True.

May I add: Justice Thomas pulling up the Affirmative Action ladder behnd him.

	28-07-2005 21:18									#4
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quote: May I add: Justice Thomas pulling up the Affirmative Action ladder behnd him.

Umm...what was he supposed to do? Read Affirmative Action into the Constitution when it ain't there because of his skin color?

[/threadjack]

Btw Mr "Fun", what you say about generating self-hatred is valid and raises an interesting paradox - groups who've been subjected to this propaganda for a long time often exhibit pathologies which are then used by the propagandists to promote the self-hatred. For example, using your obvious interest in one particular group, homosexuals have been demonised for God only knows how long. This results in many homosexuals exhibiting self-destructive behaviors which are highlighted as proof for the needed demonisation. If homosexual teens commit suicide more often, thats proof not of the effect of demonising homosexuality, its proof homosexuals need to be demonised. Circular reasoning...

	28-07-2005 21:26									#5
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My "devil's advocate" threadjack:

isn't all of this based on the disputed assumption that homosexuality is unchangeable?

	28-07-2005 21:31									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Btw Mr "Fun", what you say about generating self-hatred is valid and raises an interesting paradox - groups who've been subjected to this propaganda for a long time often exhibit pathologies which are then used by the propagandists to promote the self-hatred. For example, using your obvious interest in one particular group, homosexuals have been demonised for God only knows how long. This results in many homosexuals exhibiting self-destructive behaviors which are highlighted as proof for the needed demonisation. If homosexual teens commit suicide more often, thats proof not of the effect of demonising homosexuality, its proof homosexuals need to be demonised. Circular reasoning...

But the majority of gays are healthy individuals who do not engage in self-destructive behavior. So the bigots that engage in this circular "reasoning" pluck out a few gay individuals that do engage in self-destructive behavior, and then use them as illustrative examples, as if they represent the majority of gays.

	28-07-2005 21:31									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Az My "devil's advocate" threadjack: isn't all of this based on the disputed assumption that homosexuality is unchangeable?

There are some people who dispute that the Earth is flat in spite of the evidence.

	28-07-2005 21:41									#8
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I don't think that we can quite claim that that the field of psychology phsychatry and neuroscience is as easy to understand as the movement of celestial bodies, and the ability to decipher a ****ing picture.

come on, it's not that obvious. I mean, people develop fetishes and lose them a lot. Why can't the same be done with the particular attraction to getting bummed by burly men?

I know that this is like super-taboo for the gay community, because this means that sexuality can be changable, and thus a person can make a choice to try and change it through various means, including places like above, and that would mean that places like above are legitimate ( and they are, as long as noone is forcefully placed in one ), but what's the problem? As long as noone has to change the way they have fun because "this is god's will" or some rubbish like that, what's the problem?

	28-07-2005 21:48									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Az I don't think that we can quite claim that that the field of psychology phsychatry and neuroscience is as easy to understand as the movement of celestial bodies, and the ability to decipher a ****ing picture. come on, it's not that obvious. I mean, people develop fetishes and lose them a lot. Why can't the same be done with the particular attraction to getting bummed by burly men? I know that this is like super-taboo for the gay community, because this means that sexuality can be changable, and thus a person can make a choice to try and change it through various means, including places like above, and that would mean that places like above are legitimate ( and they are, as long as noone is forcefully placed in one ), but what's the problem? As long as noone has to change the way they have fun because "this is god's will" or some rubbish like that, what's the problem?

But to me, it shouldn't matter if sexual orientation is a choice or not. Even given that sexual orientation is a choice, people are still entitled to the right to form their own identity or to their own conscience.

I still argue though, that sexual orientation is not a choice, because no matter how much I examine my own life, my own experiences, and my own sexuality, I have never come to the conclusion that I chose to be gay.

I just can't recall a point in my life where I woke up one morning and decided that I felt like being a gay man. I did however, decide one day to come out to myself, and to come out to family and friends. But that is entirely different from waking up one morning and feeling like being a gay man rather than a straight man.

	28-07-2005 21:51									#10
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quote: But the majority of gays are healthy individuals who do not engage in self-destructive behavior. So the bigots that engage in this circular "reasoning" pluck out a few gay individuals that do engage in self-destructive behavior, and then use them as illustrative examples, as if they represent the majority of gays.

Certain pathologies appear in greater numbers within the homosexual community, it doesn't matter what the majority does.

	28-07-2005 23:03									#11
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Berz - nice analysis of those issues. That is probably one of the reasons that the psychology community removed homosexuality from the DSM (diagnostic manual) - they realized that many of the mental problems associated with gays were a result of their treatment, not their homosexuality.

Az - there are probably certain cases that may be true. However, the indications are that you are pretty much hard-wired as an adult as to what turns you on. Does the idea of watching gay porn get a reaction from you as "eww". It has negative appeal for me. There is NO choice in the matter.

Think about it. KISS - keep it simple stupid. Occam's Razor, for us more hi-falutin types. I cannot become turned on by a morbidly obese female, yet there are men who really are turned on by them. Sexuality (versus fetishes) is very basic, and all indications among those in the mental health field is that it is devilishly difficult, at best, to change adult sexuality. Plus doing experiments on children to determine the basis, where it develops, etc. pretty much belong to the Mengele school of science, so we are going to be stuck with theories for the most part.

	28-07-2005 23:36									#12
	Re: Some gays are taught to hate themselves. Support Apolyton

In other news, the sky is blue.

	28-07-2005 23:36									#13
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Change the record.

	28-07-2005 23:38									#14
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun There are some people who dispute that the Earth is flat in spite of the evidence.

Since we don't know what causes homosexuality, it is not truthful to say it isn't "curable." My argument is that it's entirely beside the point. There's nothing wrong with it, so why bother trying to "cure" it.

	28-07-2005 23:51									#15
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quote: There's nothing wrong with it

Subjective.

	28-07-2005 23:53									#16
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Nothing wrong with homosexuality, but there's a lot wrong with British tw*ts who take it up the ass while slamming gay people.

	29-07-2005 00:05									#17
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On a same plane but a bit less drastic owhat have you, Left handed folks such as my self were also frowned upon, especially early in school years. Though im not sure most kids at the age of learning to write knew they were gay so i guess my observation doesnt have **** to do with anything. Other then the fact that for years lefties were hit and forced to do something they couldnt or didnt want to.

	29-07-2005 00:08									#18
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To quote an cartoon from I guess the 60's, that showed these people at a black tie dinner party. Two handsome, well built men were with a very attractive young lady at a hoes-de-however you spell it tray. They were answering the obviously shocked straight couple - "I believe what three people do in the privacy of their bedroom is their own business."

	29-07-2005 00:15									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski On a same plane but a bit less drastic owhat have you, Left handed folks such as my self were also frowned upon, especially early in school years. Though im not sure most kids at the age of learning to write knew they were gay so i guess my observation doesnt have **** to do with anything. Other then the fact that for years lefties were hit and forced to do something they couldnt or didnt want to.

I'm left-handed as well, and when I was a kid my parents would repeatedly take utensils from my left hand and put them in my right hand.

Didn't work.

	29-07-2005 00:26									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I'm left-handed as well, and when I was a kid my parents would repeatedly take utensils from my left hand and put them in my right hand. Didn't work.

It didnt work for me either. I am still ultimatly left handed. My parents never called me names like the teachers and peers did cause of it. but never the less being hit in the hand and called names for not being right handed had an affect on you. Both tubers and my self are lefties and with the 4 kids we have between us not a one of them is a lefty go figure.

	29-07-2005 00:34									#21
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Nobody can make you hate yourself without your permission.

	29-07-2005 00:37									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I'm left-handed as well, and when I was a kid my parents would repeatedly take utensils from my left hand and put them in my right hand. Didn't work.

Speaking of left hands, since you did so well on your avatar animation, could you modify it to make Picard bite-off that left index finger that Data is wagging. It is driving me crazy.

	29-07-2005 00:37									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski It didnt work for me either. I am still ultimatly left handed. My parents never called me names like the teachers and peers did cause of it. but never the less being hit in the hand and called names for not being right handed had an affect on you. Both tubers and my self are lefties and with the 4 kids we have between us not a one of them is a lefty go figure.

I thought Texas killed lefties...

	29-07-2005 00:42									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Nothing wrong with homosexuality

More opinion.

	29-07-2005 00:43									#25
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The rest of the statement that you omitted was fact.

	29-07-2005 00:45									#26
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There have been no facts in this thread, only loud-mouthed Yanks shouting their opinion.

	29-07-2005 00:47									#27
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quote: There have been no facts in this thread, only loud-mouthed Yanks shouting their opinion

Show me a thread with facts and I'll show you a thread on some other site!

	29-07-2005 00:47									#28
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Fact: that gayness is not wrong is an opinion.

	29-07-2005 00:49									#29
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Fact: that the concept of wrong is an opinion

	29-07-2005 00:57									#30
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Sounds like someone didn't get taught the difference between right and wrong.