01-08-2005 01:15									#91
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by techumseh Can you explain this bit?

After the Rev War ended in 1783, the British neglected to withdraw a number of their troops from the frontier and along the Great Lakes... within US territory that is. The British also incited many of the native groups of the area against the US. This was one of the grievances the US had that led to the war

	01-08-2005 01:25									#92
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Why does Canada not invade the US now while their army is in Evil Terroristland?

	01-08-2005 01:26									#93
	Inflate your Upload Space

with what?

	01-08-2005 01:27									#94
	Suffering from ads?

Polar Bears!!

	01-08-2005 01:30									#95
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Mounties and figure skaters.

	01-08-2005 01:31									#96
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

The salvation army!

	01-08-2005 01:46									#97
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Ecthy Why does Canada not invade the US now while their army is in Evil Terroristland?

We've considered it. However, while your army is bringing Freedom and Democracy to the Enslaved Iraqi People, you kept your nukes in North Dakota. So not just now.

	01-08-2005 02:57									#98
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn Dr. Strangelove, You're correct. I was just exaggerating to make a point. I know, but official (or unofficial) support was still with the South. I'm sure, though, that popular support was minimal... although one should consider the fear many Canadians had of a victorious Union army looking for new places to fight. Its no coincidence that Confederation in Canada came only a few years later. And one should also consider that most escaped slaves in Canada ended up returning to the US after the war. .... I'm not making any point really, just pointing things out.

The effects of the blockade of the South weren't felt until the third year of the war though, and the sympathies of the British people was solidly pro-Union. The British empire had outlawed slavery only 30 years before, and the evangelism which fueled the abolition movemtn in Britain was still quite strong. In fact incidents during which it appeared thatthe British goverment might be favoring the South brought the peoples of the cities of England, even those rendered jobless by the blockade of Southern cotton, into the street to riot.
The cotton crops of 1860 and 1861 had been excessive, By late 1861 factories in Britain were shutting down due to a surplus of textiles. The Union blockade didn't become fully effective until later in 1862, By late 1863 the shortfall in the cotton market was definately being felt, but British investors had begun investing in cotton farming in Egypt and Turkey the year before. By late 1864 imports from the middle east compensated for half the loss of souther US cotton, and some cotton was beginning to be shipped out of the liberated areas of the South. By 1865 the international cotton market had nearly recovered. The governments of Britain and France rewarded their farsighted investors by slapping a tariff on imported American cotton, then in 1869 the opening of the Suez canal brought cotton from India and the Ffar East to European markets and the tariffs remained. The American cotton trade didn't recover. Had the South not gone to war it is likely that the American growers might have been able to underbid European investors in Asian cotton and might have kept their dominance of the cotton trade. There might not have been enough initial profitability in Asian cotton to attract investors. Who knows, the Suez Canal might even have gone bankrupt! OTOH had the governments of Europe been determined to build their Asian trade upon cotton and tariffs had been used even more aggressively, then the American South would still have been dependent upon the Yankee textile trade to save it.

	01-08-2005 03:00									#99
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn After the Rev War ended in 1783, the British neglected to withdraw a number of their troops from the frontier and along the Great Lakes... within US territory that is. The British also incited many of the native groups of the area against the US. This was one of the grievances the US had that led to the war

They also established a number of new forts.

	01-08-2005 04:36									#100
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara They also established a number of new forts.

Forts inside US territory. It's not like finding the border was that difficult. Canda was north of the great lakes, the US was south. What was unclear about that?

	01-08-2005 05:24									#101
	Put an end to popups!

Yep, basically the Brits ceded over the Ohio River Valley in the Treaty of Paris, and then acted like that part of the treaty never happened. They continued to occupy it as if it was still British property. That didn't lead to good feeling among the Americans... and getting rid of that, along with impressment of American sailors were the two major causes of discontent (ie, Brits still acting as if they owned the place).

That and the XYZ Affair & Quasi-war with France made the first 30 years of American independance quite... interesting.

	01-08-2005 05:59									#102
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

We never said you didn't have some legitmate grievences, only that you also lusted after Canada!

We've also had some interesting times. Right after the end of your civil war, there was a major movement to annex Canada (you had that big Union army with nothing much for it to do). One of the big American moves was the purchase of Alaska from Russia (1866), attempting to 'flank' British North America. Armed raids on Canadian territory by the 'Fenians', Irish-American terrorists who were largely Union veterans, were winked at by American authorities.

The Canadian response was Confederation (1867), the unification of the colonies of Upper and Lower Canada, the maritime colonies and British Columbia, and the formation of a Canadian army. A trans-continental railway was begun in order to settle the western prairies ahead of American settlers. A large scale immigration program was implemented. These measures succeded in preventing a new annexationist war by the Americans.

	01-08-2005 06:02									#103
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

It's frightening how many conspiracy "annexation of Canada" theories that our neighbors to the North have .

	01-08-2005 06:10									#104
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

When you're insigificant you have to find some way to make yourself feel important.

	01-08-2005 06:20									#105
	Inflate your Upload Space

That would be why you invaded, several times, yes?

	01-08-2005 06:22									#106
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

See... there it is again!

	01-08-2005 06:50									#107
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by techumseh We never said you didn't have some legitmate grievences, only that you also lusted after Canada! We've also had some interesting times. Right after the end of your civil war, there was a major movement to annex Canada (you had that big Union army with nothing much for it to do). One of the big American moves was the purchase of Alaska from Russia (1866), attempting to 'flank' British North America. Armed raids on Canadian territory by the 'Fenians', Irish-American terrorists who were largely Union veterans, were winked at by American authorities. The Canadian response was Confederation (1867), the unification of the colonies of Upper and Lower Canada, the maritime colonies and British Columbia, and the formation of a Canadian army. A trans-continental railway was begun in order to settle the western prairies ahead of American settlers. A large scale immigration program was implemented. These measures succeded in preventing a new annexationist war by the Americans.

IIRC there actually were raids on US territory launched from Canada undertaken via Confederate raiders during the American Civil War.

	01-08-2005 06:51									#108
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither That would be why you invaded, several times, yes?

The second time was a "hot pursuit".

	01-08-2005 08:09									#109
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui It's frightening how many conspiracy "annexation of Canada" theories that our neighbors to the North have .

It's frightening how little our neighbors to the South know about their own history, let alone that of their nearest neighbor.

	01-08-2005 14:18									#110
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Normandy. We're even

Hardly. I seem to recall quite a few other nations involved in those amphibious landings.


And how come it took so long for the Yanks to get there, hmm ?

	01-08-2005 18:22									#111
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove The colonials had a nasty habit of offering generous land grants in exchange for surrender to the German mercenraies, many of whom were actually abducted from neighboring German principalities. There are tales of German troops charging Yankee lines, throwing down their guns, taking off their uniforms, then after a brief almost symbolic period of imprisonment, being shoiwn to some nice pristine American land for them to farm. There are places in rural Virginia near where some of revolutionary POW camps were located where you'd be hard pressed to find a non-German name on a mail box. Likewise, while French troops were present at Yorktown, they were not the majority of Washington's troops.

I trace my lineage back to such a hessian soldier. Seems he was one of the most unlucky sods ever.

Initially impressed into the Hessian army he served and was either captured or saw the light. After being captured and serving as a POW, after a prisoner exchange he was to be shipped back to Prussia. Seems the ship immediately hit bad weather and promptly shipwrecked whereupon he was immediately recaptured and spent the rest of his days during the revolutionary war in POW camp.
(if it weren't for bad luck.....)

After the war at the ripe age of 50's he did a stint as an indentured servant gaining his freedom by the time he reached 60. He settled down in his 60's in PA farming a small tract of land. Eventually he married and had kids. Funny I remember reading his will. Something to the effect that he left all his material possessions to his wife on the condition that she never remarry. If she did remarry she would get naught.

	01-08-2005 18:28									#112
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui It's frightening how many conspiracy "annexation of Canada" theories that our neighbors to the North have .

Annexation of Canada was a war aim of the war of 1812, just not a primary or even secondary one. More of a, nice to have if we can get it. It certainly wasn't the overriding consideration of the war, as our Canuck cousins seems to think it was. I'm more than happy to point the imperialist finger at my country, but this isn't one of those cases.

Even today, the State Department still maintains plans for the annexation of parts of Canada, should the Confederation break up (basically, BC and Alberta).

As for what to do with that big Union army, they forget that it had a job . . . occupying the South and suppressing the 2nd insurrection from 1866-67. The South remained occupied until 1876, and then increasing worker militency and a deal with the Democrats lead to the army being pulled out of the South and inserted near major industrial centers, as well as out West to fight the Indian Wars.

	01-08-2005 18:29									#113
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn After the Rev War ended in 1783, the British neglected to withdraw a number of their troops from the frontier and along the Great Lakes... within US territory that is. The British also incited many of the native groups of the area against the US. This was one of the grievances the US had that led to the war

Gee you'ld think with a Poly name like Tecumseh he would have known.

	01-08-2005 18:31									#114
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Annexation of Canada was a war aim of the war of 1812, just not a primary or even secondary one. More of a, nice to have if we can get it. Even today, the State Department still maintains plans for the annexation of parts of Canada, should the Confederation break up (basically, BC and Alberta).

It never made the reasons the Senate authorized war. If a war aim it waaaay down the list compared to the greivances listed.

	01-08-2005 18:33									#115
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I DanS'd ya.

	01-08-2005 18:41									#116
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove The second time was a "hot pursuit".

You mean this time?

	01-08-2005 19:08									#117
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by DanS As far as I have been taught, at the beginning of the war, the factions were fairly evenly split royalist, neutral, and rebel. .

thats based on a quote from a letter of John Adams. However the quote is wrong - Adams was referring to the American view of the FRENCH revolution - one third supported it, one third opposed, the rest were neutral.

If you look region by region, you see the following

New England - overwhelmingly Patriot, except for a few wealthy Anglicans.

New York - Dutch, historically mistrustful of New England, heavily loyalist. More patriot sentiment on eastern Long Island (settled from New England) and in the Schoharie Valley.

New Jersey - wavered - went back on forth during the war depending on which army was there. New Englanders around Newark generally patriot, Dutch generally loyalist, quakers mixed.

Pennsylvania - lots of quakers who didnt want anything to do with war. Others who supported the patriot cause, as did most of the Scotch Irish in SW Pa. Germans mixed?

Maryland - reluctance to support patriot cause (Among Catholic elite) but supplied some of the best units to Continental army. Predominantly patriot.

Delaware - heavy loyalist sentiment, but heavy patriot support, similar to Maryland.

Virginia - overwhelmingly patriot, both low country planters, and hill country small farmers (followers of Jefferson and P. Henry) Small loyalist grouping left early in the war.

North Carolina - Scots highlanders, probably the largest and most important loyalist community in America. Were balanced by patriot Scots Irish - battles between patriot and loyalist militias tended to end in draws.

South Carolina - considerable loyalist minority, but hill county strongly patriot, and significant patriot sentiment in the low country (Frances Marion, et al)

Georgia - heavily loyalist.


All in all, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. During the revolution, there was no area that stayed in Tory control absent the presence of British regulars. Any areas where there were neither Continental Army or British Army troops, and control was contested between local patriot and tory militias, always (AFAIK) came under patriot control - even Georgia and North Carolina. This would indicate that the loyalists were rather lesser in number than the patriots.

	01-08-2005 19:16									#118
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither quote: When the United States declared war on Great Britain in 1812, Upper Canada had a population of nearly 100,000, four-fifths of whom were American-born. That's 80,000 American UELs in Upper Canada (now Ontario). Lower Canada (Quebec) would have been much larger, so would have been Nova Scotia. There was also New Brunswick which would have been fairly small, but also full of UELs.

Youre assuming every American born person in upper canada in 1812 was a UEL. IIUC, there was a significant migration into upper canada from Upstate New York that was NOT loyalist. Historically people migrated due west for land - Virginians into Kentucky, Pennsylvanians into Ohio, and New Englanders into upstate New York - the same folks kept heading west for land, across the Niagra frontier. Similarly some Canadians from lower Ontario later headed west into Michigan, in pursuit of land with similar climate and farming qualities.

	01-08-2005 19:23									#119
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

as for US focus on Canada, youve to remember that from the US point of view it WASNT Canada - it was Britsh North America, and even after confederation was part of the British Empire. Which just happened to be the number one power on the face of the earth, for most of the period from 1814 to the 1880's at least. Depending on the state of US-British relations, Canada was a distinct strategic threat.

	05-08-2005 04:02									#120
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by BlackCat I can't give you any view that may make sense because I haven't digged into the subject - my newest "source" is the movie "The patriot" and I know that it is hopelessly unreliable - I guess that even americans accept this If you really want an opinion, I'll say that it's mainly a question of control - brits couldn't control the area so they lost it - actually, if control was easier, then you would have been danish now. Maybe I should put a plug in the redwine bottle

Heh, I love it!!

Well we were under dane-law for quite sometime......

Trust me to post a question, then go away the next day- I'm only back due to an injury- silly me.

Paine is mentioned, he was British, amongst many famous people of the founding of the USA, the British in modern America couldn't get what they wanted in the UK, they might get freedom in what WOULD become the US, but the UK pamphleteers were just as active in support of the war against the King- they were becoming what WE dreamed of back home, is how I see it.

The British soldiers sent by the mad king were apparently reluctant to fire upon anyone, as they viewed them as brothers who had freedom.
The British soldier at the time was viewed very badly back in Britain, amongst all segments of society, and this attitude remained until 1815.

Time to read the rest of the posts!

Toby