30-07-2005 11:36									#31
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The Americans had some hope of Quebecois assistance in both the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812, but the Catholic Church took one look at the invading republican/puritan hordes and started preaching "Maybe the English aren't so bad after all!"

	30-07-2005 11:39									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler Don't forget Braveheart.

Wait a minute. You mean....?

	30-07-2005 14:52									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Toby Rowe Well, I want the facts seperated from the myths, so here are what may turn out to be a fact of a myth. The rules are, all sources cannot be from either the US or the UK. To make any proud Americans blood boil, a BBC 4 parter about 2-4 years ago stated some unusal "facts" on the war, my memory is crap, so I hope the Beeb doesn't sue this licence fee holder.....! Dr. David Starkey stated that the Colonies ended up paying 1/100th the taxation my ansestors paid in the modern UK, whilst doing the same job. He also said in this 4 parter that an agitator in Boston only became so once he realised his tea-smuggling ships now sat outside the harbour, with tea costing more than the now tax-free ships coming in. Two million Americans voted with their feet and went elsewhere once the war was won, meaning that at best, the war was won with a maximum support of 40-50% at best, and at all times. I personsally am pleased World History panned out in the way it did, but even aged 20 I felt "No taxatation without representation" was by far the best war-cry of those that wished independence above the majority. My ancestors wanted it as well. The chap also mentioned in detail the British refusing to allow exansion Westwards in case the native peoples got even more angry, and cited it as a major cause of frustration for all, pro and anti. Washington was refused an Officership, which cost the royals dearly, and left him resentful, that was a costly mistake to the monarchy, and repeated to this day by the Army as it still is class-based to a larger extent. (All of this is based upon the German-English vote that never happened in the US, that I posted in the London bombing thread of which page I can no longer see, on the following page and a reply- so here is the perfect chance to rid ourselves of myths and gain facts, I learn't that myth, then forgot it was thus when a US chap pointed me to a myth and fact site!). Toby

Eh, no, that's pretty much standard knowledge to anyone who studies the Revolutionary War. It might not be taught in third-grade history class, but many of the things you mentioned were taught in high school and/or college.

Except the fact about Washington. We're told that the reason he was denied a commission/promotion was because of his bungling that touched off the Seven-Years War. Oops.

	30-07-2005 16:09									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Seriously though, I read a very recent article in which King George was shown to have a serious mental disorder. I can't remember which one it was, but he would go from a normal person to having spells where he became so mentally incapacitated that he could not administer much of anything. Earlier he was portrayed as just being a d1ck, but now there is evidence he was physically and mentally ill.

Similar afflictions have been known to strike Presidents....

	30-07-2005 16:53									#35
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George III had porphyria, or "fear of poor people".

	30-07-2005 16:58									#36
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Similar afflictions have been known to strike Presidents....

Cocaine induced brain damage?

	30-07-2005 17:06									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Cocaine induced brain damage?

I was thinking of Reagan's Disease: Amnesia In Absentiatitis and Bush's Syndrome- an inability to stay out of liquor stores whilst keeping Texas and Alabama safe from the Viet Minh.


And of course Kennedyosis- obsessive compulsive banging.

	30-07-2005 18:00									#38
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obsessive compulsive banging
Ted Striker

	30-07-2005 18:42									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker The Patriot is the most historically accurate account of the war ever produced. This is fact.

Yeah, even JohnT recommended it to me recently

	30-07-2005 19:27									#41
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Except the fact about Washington. We're told that the reason he was denied a commission/promotion was because of his bungling that touched off the Seven-Years War. Oops.

Whilst a certain carpet-baggin' law-student might disagree with me, Washington wasn't all that great. He was just better than the idiots the British sent against us. Against an able commander, Washington would have been crushed in NY and the rebellion would have ended fairly early on.

Washington was notoriusly anti-democratic, at least as far as anyone who wasn't part of the elite was concerned. He threw free Blacks out of the Continental Army, ended the practice of electing officers, instituted corporal punishment, etc. However, he refused to become King, so we can at least thank him for that.

If Washington had been a loyalist, we'd have still won the Revolution.

	30-07-2005 19:34									#42
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Eh, no, that's pretty much standard knowledge to anyone who studies the Revolutionary War. It might not be taught in third-grade history class, but many of the things you mentioned were taught in high school and/or college. Except the fact about Washington. We're told that the reason he was denied a commission/promotion was because of his bungling that touched off the Seven-Years War. Oops.

Yea I agree. Details and exact figures seem a bit exagerated, but the general ideas are fairly well known.

Americans paid far less taxes than Brits. It wasn't the taxation that was the problem, it was the fact they weren't represented. The principle of the thing.

Yes there were many Americans who were loyalists and some went to Canada or Britain. That Canadian article seems to have pretty good numbers. 2 million is way too much. I always heard a third were patriots, a third were loyalists, and a third were neutral or indifferent.

	30-07-2005 20:46									#43
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KENNEDYOSIS

	30-07-2005 21:28									#44
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara However, he refused to become King, so we can at least thank him for that.

Yeah, that was probably the single greatest threat to liberty in our history. Go Washington!

	30-07-2005 21:47									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Seriously though, I read a very recent article in which King George was shown to have a serious mental disorder. I can't remember which one it was, but he would go from a normal person to having spells where he became so mentally incapacitated that he could not administer much of anything. Earlier he was portrayed as just being a d1ck, but now there is evidence he was physically and mentally ill.

He suffered from Porphyria, a defect of heme synthesis that causes the accumulation of toxic metabolites that impair brain function leading to psychosis and dementia. He became ill towars the end of the American revolution, recovered after a few years, then relapsed during the Napoleonic era. Ironically his condition was treated with brandy. Alcohol is known to be one of the primary factors which trigger and esacerbate the disease. If he had been treated with the proper diet he might hvae recovered more quickly. Whether that would have been a good thing for history is another question.

	30-07-2005 21:52									#46
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BTW, how many loyalists returned to the US after a few Canadian winters? IIRC quite a large number. Consider that 50 to 100 thousand supposedly entered Canada in the early 1780s, but the population of Canada was only 100 thousand in 1812? Didn't anybody live in Canada before they arrived? US poppulation was 3 million at the time of the revolution, but rose to 4.5 million by 1810.

	30-07-2005 22:55									#47
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the pop of canada was 100k at 1812?

USA at the war of 1812

	31-07-2005 00:43									#48
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quote: When the United States declared war on Great Britain in 1812, Upper Canada had a population of nearly 100,000, four-fifths of whom were American-born.

That's 80,000 American UELs in Upper Canada (now Ontario). Lower Canada (Quebec) would have been much larger, so would have been Nova Scotia. There was also New Brunswick which would have been fairly small, but also full of UELs.

	31-07-2005 01:25									#49
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Canadian population was under half a million in 1812. US population was 8 million.

	31-07-2005 02:12									#50
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither quote: I say not really not British due to the phenomena that parts of Southern Ontario and British Columbia are said to be more British than the Brits. Ya think?

I chose to ignore that comment of yours because it was the single most idiotic and inane thing I've read in a while.

And I like how you quote a UEL article in response to Toby's interest in an unbiased, non-partisan look at the US Revolutionary War. Did you even read Toby's OP?

Think on that.

	31-07-2005 04:37									#51
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Toby asked for views from outside of the US and Britain. I showed him one with the disclaimer that it was very closely tied to Britain.

I thought he might have been interested in the passion that many people demonstrated for the Crown. It also has more accurate appraisals of numbers than the 2 million from the Beeb that he mentioned.And if you've never heard the expression 'more British than the Brits' used to describe certain areas and populations of Canada, don't blame me for your ignorance.

Thank about it, indeed.

	31-07-2005 04:46									#52
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Was the British side in the War of 1812 only supported by Canada? No soldiers from the UK?

	31-07-2005 04:53									#53
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Lots, but that should be obvious. The militia from British North America did not win, and could not have won, that war. Regular British soldiers did. The militia did play a major role in the early defence of Upper Canada though, and in other places while the war lasted.

	31-07-2005 04:54									#54
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I say 'won', because from a Candian perspective, we did 'win'. They invaded and 'we' trounced them.

	31-07-2005 04:56									#55
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Here in G those wars are irrelevant in public opinion and knowledge.

	31-07-2005 05:00									#56
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Of course. It was one very minor British colonial war that happened while much larger things were happening on your own doorsteps.

However, it is a bit more relevant here, for obvious reasons.

	31-07-2005 05:01									#57
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Yeah, whe kicked Poland's arse and had thence our arses kicked by Nappy.

	31-07-2005 08:07									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthy Yeah, whe kicked Poland's arse and had thence our arses kicked by Nappy.

You mean you, Austria, and Russia kicked Poland's arse. Were they really that dangerous that it took all three of you to hose them? What did they do to deserve it?

	31-07-2005 08:14									#59
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I say 'won', because from a Candian perspective, we did 'win'. They invaded and 'we' trounced them.

The invasion of Canada was a desultatory affair initiated by one local commander. You should be reminded that your troops invaded first and got sent packing back to Canada by a smaller American force. The commander's orders were to defend the Northwest Territory, which he definately did. After his foray into Canada British forces no longer threatened to invade from the North.

	31-07-2005 08:28									#60
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quote: Regular British soldiers did. The militia did play a major role in the early defence of Upper Canada though, and in other places while the war lasted.

This ties in with the American perspective on that war. From the US viewpoint, the British, a superpower in every sense of the word at that time, were unable to utterly humiliate puny little America - again. Americans were very angry that that war was started because no one thought there was a chance in hell that they'd win, and yet the war ended in a draw. Thats a huge accomplishment for a new country and it had a hugely positive impact on the national attitude.