02-08-2005 04:11									#1
	...And then there were Two (end of HMS Invincible) Got spare money?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/...ire/4733201.stm

quote: One of the navy's three aircraft carriers sailed into Portsmouth for the last time on Monday before retiring after 25 years of service. A flypast took place as HMS Invincible arrived into port, before being decommissioned on 3 August. The crew and more than 200 family members were on board to say farewell. Critics have raised concerns that her retirement has left the navy with only one aircraft carrier, HMS Illustrious, while HMS Ark Royal undergoes a refit. Following the ceremony on Monday, there will be a reception on the ship for former crew members, followed by a paying-off parade on Wednesday. Captain Neil Morisetti, Invincible's commanding officer, said: "These events provide an excellent opportunity for HMS Invincible to celebrate not only her 25 years of service but also the hard work and dedication shown by members of the ship's company past and present, and the continued support given by their families throughout her long and distinguished career." Strike carrier HMS Illustrious will take over from Invincible as the service's flagship at a ceremony off Portsmouth on Thursday. New postings HMS Invincible is being taken out of service six months early - a move that critics have said is to fund the ongoing military presence in Iraq. The Ministry of Defence (MoD) said Invincible would be gradually relieved of its crew and captain soon after the decommissioning ceremony. The crew will be given new postings and the vessel will be handed over to the MoD's Disposal and Reserve Ships Organisation where it will be mothballed until it is sold in 2010. The carrier was launched by the Queen in 1977. The Duke of York was based on board as a Sea King helicopter pilot during the Falklands war. The vessel had a £64m refit in 2001 and acted as the Royal Navy's flagship in last week's International Fleet Review. Invincible is the sixth ship in the Royal Navy's history to bear the name. The navy said it intends to replace its whole fleet of aircraft carriers in 2012.

A sad state indeed for the RN.

	02-08-2005 04:13									#2
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If I was a bit stupid I'd say "We sunk the Hood though. Ha!" now.

	02-08-2005 06:29									#4
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

How are you going to keep the Argies in line?

	02-08-2005 06:39									#5
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Cross the fingers and hope for the best?

	02-08-2005 06:44									#6
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Nukes.

	02-08-2005 07:11									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat Nukes.

Pfff. Britain doesn't have the stones to use them.

	02-08-2005 14:03									#8
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Nuking tthe argies over a bit rovk in the south atlantic would be a bit of an over reaction.

We took the flaklands back with 2 carriers and we still have 2 plus a helicopter carrier.

	02-08-2005 14:06									#9
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We were lucky. We wouldn't be able to do it today.

	02-08-2005 14:08									#10
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And it'll be a miracle if the two replacement carriers arrive on time, on budget.

	02-08-2005 14:12									#11
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Has any defence procurement in any country ever arrived on time on budget?

	02-08-2005 14:16									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman And it'll be a miracle if the two replacement carriers arrive on time, on budget.

They won't. They'll be late and over cost. Then it will become clear that all the electronics and systems that were cut from the design to keep costs down and the politicians happy are essential so they will be retrofitted at greater cost than if they had been installed in the first place. So the RN will have a period of about 4-5 years without an effective carrier force. As usual.

	02-08-2005 14:20									#13
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Why do we need an effective carrier force?

As long as we keep the US **** (Florida?) firmly rammed up our butts and do what they tell us we can get supported by theirs when we're fighting their wars.

	02-08-2005 14:38									#14
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Why do we need an effective carrier force? As long as we keep the US **** (Florida?) firmly rammed up our butts and do what they tell us we can get supported by theirs when we're fighting their wars.

aint that the (sad)truth! we could always refit out Admiral Nelsons old ship

	02-08-2005 15:22									#15
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH We were lucky. We wouldn't be able to do it today.

You're right, Margaret Thatcher's already been out of office for 15 years.

	02-08-2005 15:36									#16
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It's just a shame she hasn't died yet.

	02-08-2005 15:48									#17
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quote: We were lucky. We wouldn't be able to do it today.

Na.. We'd smash the Argies again and again. The navies learned a lot about air defence since then, all they have to do is get the troops ashore and they'll take care of the rest.

And the new carriers will never arrive on time, looking at the recent MOD projects it'll be 2020 before we'll even have them delivered and 2030 before they're fully operational.

	02-08-2005 15:57									#18
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We don't have the transport or escort ships to mount that size of operation any more. We barely did back then but there've been a lot of cuts since.

	02-08-2005 15:59									#19
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Argies don't have smart bombs, and our special forces kick ass. We could take the Falklands with 50 blokes and a laptop.

	02-08-2005 16:04									#20
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I think argies have "smart" bombs by now.

	02-08-2005 16:05									#21
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quote: We don't have the transport or escort ships to mount that size of operation any more. We barely did back then but there've been a lot of cuts since.

I actually think the amount spent on the navy is higher than it was back then but I'm not positive. I disagree with you that we dont have the escorts for it, despite recent cuts we still have one of the largest surface navies in the world. As for transporting the troops we'll scrape together whatever we can if it means the navy commandeering every cruise ship it can get its hands on.

	02-08-2005 16:13									#22
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If you don't believe me, maybe you'll believe the senior officer in the senior service.

If nothing else, it compares the fleet sizes then and now.

quote: Adml Sir Alan West, the First Sea Lord and Chief of the Naval Staff, said that the Government's defence cuts have left the Navy with too few ships to sustain even moderate losses in a maritime conflict, despite Ministers' assurances Sir Alan added that with a target number of only 25 frigates and destroyers it was likely that only a dozen would be available at any one time for war fighting. In 1982 the fighting element of the Royal Navy consisted of three aircraft carriers, 15 destroyers, 50 frigates and 33 submarines.

http://portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/...2/13/navy13.xml

	02-08-2005 16:27									#23
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Sea Lord is such an awesome title.

	02-08-2005 16:36									#24
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quote: If you don't believe me, maybe you'll believe the senior officer in the senior service.

Yep, its sad how much the fleet has been cut in recent times.
However if we had to go down to the Falklands again the navy could scrape through, the ships are now equipped with the best air defence systems in the world and has learned the painful lessons of the Falklands. The navy will just have to make damn sure that they dont take many losses.
For the navy it'll be a close run thing but just get the troops on the ground and we'll take care of the rest.

	02-08-2005 16:40									#25
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quote: Originally posted by SaxonKing Na.. We'd smash the Argies again and again. The navies learned a lot about air defence since then, all they have to do is get the troops ashore and they'll take care of the rest. And the new carriers will never arrive on time, looking at the recent MOD projects it'll be 2020 before we'll even have them delivered and 2030 before they're fully operational.

	02-08-2005 16:40									#26
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Troops can't do anything if they don't get supplied with ammo/fuel etc.

	02-08-2005 16:48									#27
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quote: Troops can't do anything if they don't get supplied with ammo/fuel etc.

No they cant but if the Navy does its job properly (never a given) then supplies will get to the troops. The navy just has to do what it did last time, it might not have as many ships as it did back then but its still more than capable of holding its own against the Argie airforce.

	02-08-2005 17:02									#28
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Incidently have a look at the Royal navies website, those are some mighty impressive toys.

	02-08-2005 17:06									#29
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Why does Great Britain need such a large navy for anything besides nostalgia?

	02-08-2005 17:08									#30
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.

well, not just nostaligia, it's also a core component of europe's naval power.