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PLATO
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Of the occupied South
Dec 2002
time: 23:37
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With the Bard war proceeding well, it is time to begin to hammer out the boarder with DR. Negotiations have been opened.
quote:
PLATO says:
hello
Moonbars says:
hi
PLATO says:
How go things in the mighty DR?
Moonbars says:
dunno,, not seen a save for a while!
Moonbars says:
babylon slackers
PLATO says:
haha indeed!
PLATO says:
our people grow old waiting on them!
PLATO says:
It looks, from the battle reports, that they may be on the way out
PLATO says:
I just hope that there is something left by the time we can get there!
PLATO says:
Have you heard from any of them?
Moonbars says:
was speaking to one of them, cant remember who, a while ago
PLATO says:
Are they begging for peace with you to?
Moonbars says:
not begging, no.
PLATO says:
haha...I guess begging may be the wrong word. It sure does seem that they are desperate though
PLATO says:
Imagine them thinking we would turn on you after the way they back stabbed us! ha! I will be glad to see them go
PLATO says:
Anyway, The real reason I am bugging you right now is not Babylon. The Khan has asked me to discuss border arrangements with you on Euphorica.
PLATO says:
Any ideas?
Moonbars says:
we want the land between where our stack is now and beach boys
Moonbars says:
everything to the east of that diagonal
PLATO says:
from the forest that you are in south or is it southwest of Nirvana?
Moonbars says:
from Nirvana to beachboys
PLATO says:
I don't have a map handy, but that makes the line east of Abba doesn't it?
Moonbars says:
yes
PLATO says:
So it seems that the only cities you would gain (assuming any are left!) are Nirvana and Beach Boys?
Moonbars says:
there will be no cities to capture
PLATO says:
I fear you are correct.
PLATO says:
The proposal sounds reasonable on the surface. Let me open my save when I get home and discuss it with Paddy and the group. Do you know when you will be online over the next couple of days?
Moonbars says:
if you have 200 hits and 374 soak, the N Class warship are going to die first round. I would attack.. but if you can find any extra fodder all the better
Moonbars says:
wrong window..
PLATO says:
haha....that confused me!
PLATO says:
np
PLATO says:
So, do you know when you will be available for the next couple of days?
Moonbars says:
the proposal is the war plan we agreed with Paddy. It seems correct that having faught for the land, we own it afterwards
Moonbars says:
i'll be online after 11pm GMT until 1 or 2 am tomorrow, and around on and off at weekend
PLATO says:
Ahh...I didn't know you had spoken to Paddy on this. If that was the agreement, then of course it will be fine.
Moonbars says:
We made a war plan of what cities we'd attack
Moonbars says:
we didnt discuss who would own the land afterwards
PLATO says:
Well, I am not privvy to all the war plans...just the diplo initiatives
PLATO says:
Paddy had asked me to work with you on boarder agreement.
PLATO says:
I am glad that we are allies now. You guys seem to be a lot easier to work with than a lot of folks in this game
Moonbars says:
we may not want a literal straight line - need to map out city sites on both sides
PLATO says:
yes, I agree. We don't want to culturally screw each other!
PLATO says:
I will work on a couple of map proposals to try and have ready by the weekend. Do you have a screenshot you prefer to work with?
Moonbars says:
the one paddy sent us would work
PLATO says:
Okay then. I will work with that one.
PLATO says:
I'll be back in touch soon
Moonbars says:
ok
PLATO says:
bye for now
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Paddy the Scot
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Hordeland
Mar 2001
time: 14:37
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Chat between Moonbars or DR and Plato
Moonbars says:
has plato shown u my border proposal?
Paddy says:
yes
Moonbars says:
whats the thinking?
Paddy says:
you will need to talk to him - his dept
Moonbars says:
ah
Paddy says:
saves double up etc
Moonbars says:
true
Paddy says:
are you interesteed in having a chat with POlato
Paddy says:
Plato that would be
Moonbars says:
sure
Paddy says:
ok, he will be back in 5
Moonbars says:
kewl
PLATO has been added to the conversation.
Paddy says:
he is just on the phone
PLATO says:
Greetings Great Lord Moonbars! How is the mighty DR?
Moonbars says:
alright
Moonbars says:
better that a few hundred years ago
PLATO says:
Excellent. It is good that we no longer have to meet in those smoke filled back rooms...haha
Moonbars says:
indeed.
PLATO says:
We have received your boarder proposal and have given it some study. Did you wish to take a moment and explain the line or is it just arbitrary within the framework of the agreed line between nirvana and beach boys?
Moonbars says:
it is based on where we want to plant our cities
PLATO says:
I see. We are very mindful to your city placement...as we are to ours. May I offer an alternative that I think would work with your city concerns and ours as well?
Moonbars says:
yes
PLATO says:
I will open a direct window between us for document transport then. one second...
PLATO says:
Did you receive the document for transport?
Moonbars says:
Moonbars says:
what ur thinking behind that
PLATO says:
As you can see, this addresses your primary issue of your city placement and would allow their construction without cultural interference.
PLATO says:
Our thinking is the same as yours
PLATO says:
we are looking at optimal city placements
PLATO says:
and trying not to have eithier of us culturally interefere with the other
Moonbars says:
hard to comment without knowing where uplan your cities
PLATO says:
I am sorry. My boss is calling again. hang on one second
PLATO says:
Sorry, I am back. Been home sick for a couple of days
Moonbars says:
yes, how are you doing
PLATO says:
Better now. Thanks. 1st painfree day in a week. I was ready for that to be over. The sad part is back to work tommorow
Moonbars says:
hah. work, sucks. I went through today with no shower, yesterdays shirt and a hangover god knows what I messed up today..
PLATO says:
haha...indeed! I never know eithier. haha
PLATO says:
As far as the city placements, that is the department of the auditor general. This map was made with much discussion with our interior department...Hordeland Control. My major input was insisting that we follow the framework and respect your cities cultural boarders
PLATO says:
I think this map does that, don't you?
Moonbars says:
somewhat. I am unsure how I should view the way you want to have a tile that borders one of our towns.
PLATO says:
ahh...which tile is that?
Moonbars says:
78 from horse
PLATO says:
The mined tilee?
Moonbars says:
The tile 4 from Nirvana and 78 from the horse. basically you've chopped our desert city, taken the high ground in the north, and popped a few tiles near to the city sites i;ve disclosed. it is hard to judge why u do this without knowing where u want ur cities
Moonbars says:
hence it is hard to judge the fairness or otherwise
PLATO says:
hmmm...I see. Well, I am the information gatherer here. It is my understanding that there is a problem with the old Nirvana-U2 area and that we have had numerous discussions on how to arrive at this boarder
PLATO says:
These discussions I think go back to aqua and paddy speaking.
PLATO says:
Is this tile critical for you?
Moonbars says:
what I want to know is why you want it
Moonbars says:
what is your motivation
Moonbars says:
it's right next to one of out cities, i dont see your need for it, if you follow me
PLATO says:
hmmm...sorry. Thought I had said that. Cultural boundaries and city sites
Moonbars says:
so your cultural borders are to allow you a tile right next to one of out cities? What of our cultrual borders?
Moonbars says:
guys I have to go.. but we should continue later on.
PLATO says:
Well, as I have stated. We have done our best to respect your cultural needs. I do have to remind you though that this boarder is a part of the overall peace agreement that you had sought
PLATO says:
oh..okay. Until later then. I will take your concerns to the Horde.
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Paddy the Scot
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Hordeland
Mar 2001
time: 14:37
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Emails have been going back and forth as follows
from Aquaquote:
Moonbars has had discussions with Plato over borders.
Attached is Plato's claim. If this is official Horde policy, my reaction is to say that the Horde is exceedingly greedy in their land claims given;
1. The amount of land the Horde already possesses;
2. The relative position of Euphorican lands vs Horde/DR lands; and
3. The amount of land the Horde wishes to claim, which clearly shows DR being squashed into a corner.
If this is your or your ambassador's idea of fair, we have a major problem old chap 
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I was under the impression that this was a negotiation Lord Aqua. I have yet to see a counter proposal from your Ambassador. I await his contact.
I don't see any reason to suggest we have a problem...hmmm. Thought it was two allies working to establish a boarder that is in BOTH of their interests. Hope that is the case...
PLATO
Grand Master of The Great Council of The Blood Oath Horde
quote:
Indeed. In order to work out if your border adjustments are fair, I had
asked the Horde to send a map with their proposed city sites on it.
Regards,
Moonbars
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Indeed. And we had asked you to suggest alternative boarder lines. We have made a proposal. We would like to see what you desire the boarder to be. Thanks for responding so fast. I would like to get this settled soon as the bards appear on the ropes and the save has (hopefully) began to move again.
Thanks,
PLATO
quote:
Plato,
You've seen what we want the border to be, because upfront I showed you the
location of our proposed towns and the borders we wanted.
Your reply was t push the border back by a tile all along it, for no clear
reason. Stop wasting time and come up with the goods.
Regards,
Moonbars
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from Aquaquote:
Indeed the process has been proper thus far.
However Ambassador, you miss the subtleties implicit in my expression of concern. A negotiation is a very telling exercise. Negotiation between trusting friends is usually a simple and easy affair. If however one side starts out with a position that is clearly opportunistic, one-sided and grossly unfair, that suggests a lot about their overall attitude to the relationship and the disdain with which they treat their friend.....and quite possibly shows them to be arrogant towards others.
So I go back to what I said in my earlier email. If, after reviewing once again your proposed border arrangements, you truly believe your suggestion is fair, then we have a major problem.
I reiterate, we should both start out at what we believe is a fair split. If 5 is fair, why start at 10 when you can start at 6? Get my point?
For what it's worth, my response to your proposal would have been to simply give it back to you and suggest you have another try rather than making us laugh!
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quote:
Plato,
If you could explain *why* you want those extra tiles, that would help. It looks like you just pushed me back a tile all along the border, for the sake of it.
Regards,
James McQuiggan
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Paddy the Scot
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Hordeland
Mar 2001
time: 14:37
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then Moonbars tried it on me in chat while discussing a seperate game..
James says:
hey, how is Plato getting on with the border talks
James says:
The border I proposed in the first instance was based on having 1 tile around the three cities we wanted to plant. without knowing what Plato's reason was for pushing it back like he did, we couldnt decide what the motive behind it was
Paddy says:
no idea mate
Paddy says:
may I make an opinion an aside
James says:
yup
James says:
could u make me lunch, with a side of fries?
James says:
Paddy says:
Aqua getting upset was a bit much, as we accepted peace that you guys wanted
did we recieve anything?
Paddy says:
lunch sure
Paddy says:
if we had attacked you you would not be getting anything
Paddy says:
or you would be getting everything
James says:
heh, I think Aqua has been taking his grumpy pills that evening
Paddy says:
yes
Paddy says:
well for border talks that have no need to be rushed he is pushing
James says:
Our point of view - if we hadnt destoryed the Euphorican military, we would not have this border to decide now, so we feel the border we proposed was a fair split of the lands - especially as you've already gained a city, and stand to gain the Prize of abba as well, if u play your cards right.
James says:
what we dont get, and what angered Aqua, is that it looked very much like whatever border we'd sent, Plato would have pushed it back and said "hows that"
James says:
he didnt explain why he wanted to move it back
Paddy says:
well may I share this with you
the border as originally discussed - was we get U2 and you get Nirvana
then we move up at anglae between them
Paddy says:
anger is not needed
Paddy says:
and aqua getting pissed makes us wonder what is going on
James says:
thanks for the pizza btw. getting hungry now
Paddy says:
James says:
that's cool about U2 - Plato should have said. but what about the rest of the border - it got pushed back a full tile all along the way
James says:
u2 and nirvana were very close orginally - that's been the problem there
Paddy says:
I have said way too much mate
Paddy says:
not my department
Paddy says:
new era
Paddy says:
I allow my people to do their jobs etc
James says:
I shall await Plato's reply then. Hopefully the signal to noise ratio will be good, and he will not contradict himself again
Paddy says:
be nice
Paddy says:
remember we accept your desire for peace
Paddy says:
and we have been nice
James says:
those points are fair and valid points - go back and read the email exchange
Paddy says:
no
James says:
yes
Paddy says:
not in my interest to read every detail over and over again
James says:
ok
Paddy says:
I have many duties
Paddy says:
I have 17 team members
James says:
I could quote you if u like, to show you the parts where he gets his facts wrong
Paddy says:
and this border discussion is a discussion that has just started
Paddy says:
no - you waste your time
Paddy says:
I said my comments were an aside
James says:
we should agree to no settle the area until the discussion is complete then
James says:
fair enough
Paddy says:
Plato and his people - you need to talk to them
James says:
he's failed to reply
Paddy says:
is there a rush on
Paddy says:
if so, why?
James says:
be good to get it settled
Paddy says:
good luck to you all in that
James says:
we take his silience to mean he has no idea what to reply with, because he has no answer
Paddy says:
I look forward to signing a final document
Paddy says:
j\he is busy
Paddy says:
was in hospital last week
James says:
yes I know that
Paddy says:
so be nice
Paddy says:
and chill
James says:
i'm not the one who got worked up there
Paddy says:
go harrass McMeadows, Snoopy, and E_T
the ones who are screwing up the game by not playing the save
James says:
haha, i'm not that case already
James says:
not = on
Paddy says:
yes
Paddy says:
ok, I got to ask. Why do you need an explaination?
do you feel that we must explain ourselves
James says:
it'd be nice if your allies understood *why* they needed those tiles. especially as the horde adjustment takes all the high ground, and leave them with a tile that borders one of our cities directly.
James says:
also, platos border is daft, becuase it is impossible
James says:
culture from that city that is bordered by the horde will take that tile - we can't avoid it
James says:
same with other tiles
Paddy says:
that being that you place the cities where you want
James says:
we are not getting anywhere. if you would revveal where u wanted out cities, we could compromise.
James says:
lol, *reveal * out = your
Paddy says:
you can place them where you want
Paddy says:
we have asked that the border be where we asked is all
Paddy says:
we did not write the border for your cities
James says:
yes, but the WAY that border is pciked, ,means a huge chunk of land goes to waste as we cant settle without viloating the border
James says:
i am alramed you will not disclose your city sites - I was upfront and honest
Paddy says:
we may not have sites yet
Paddy says:
did you consider that
James says:
yes
James says:
which brings us back to my original point
James says:
why dis plato move the border back a tile all along the line?
James says:
he tried a land grab
James says:
not the way to treat your ally
Paddy says:
hmmm
James says:
neither is contuning to point out how u "spared" them when at war, now that an alliance has been signed
Paddy says:
have you considered that we made our map a LONNNNNNNNg time ago
James says:
no
Paddy says:
hey we accepted your desire for p[eace
Paddy says:
we did not come to you asking for peace
Paddy says:
and I see no reason for any anger
James says:
have you considered that we were at war with EUphorica long long long before you arrived in the Hood, and that we might rightly claim all their lands as ours? they have been out target from the start
James says:
that's where our map was draw, LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOG time ago
Paddy says:
chill
James says:
so now we need to compromise my friend
Paddy says:
I am not the person for this chat
Paddy says:
and I see no reason to rush this chat
Paddy says:
yes compromise
Paddy says:
and AQua spat in our faces with laughter, yet no "next" map has come from your side
Paddy says:
so we await your next version
James says:
please see my emailed reply
James says:
no, I await Plato's reply
Paddy says:
was there a map?
James says:
no, I await plato answering the points I raised, and have re-iterated above
James says:
it is pointless to pick a border if u have not mapped out where u will settler along it - we'll end up crossing over each other due to culture if we do that
Paddy says:
ok, cool
Paddy says:
so you say
Paddy says:
well you await Plato
Paddy says:
I am happy with that
Paddy says:
and again, I see no reason to rush
Paddy says:
if it was a rush then this would have been done with alliance papers
James says:
I look forward to finishing the talks, in a spirit of equality and openness that befits our alliance
Paddy says:
good value
James says:
James says:
dont get many of those for the pound
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PLATO
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Of the occupied South
Dec 2002
time: 23:37
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Boarder agreement complete! 
Moonbars says:
hi
Moonbars says:
I have about 40 minutes if u are free
Plato says:
Hi, yes I am.
Moonbars says:
cool. so what's new with plato
Plato says:
Had a great weekend playing some saves and a interesting sp game. I am an addict! haha
Plato says:
How is life in the mighty DR?
Plato says:
hello?
Moonbars says:
sorry had to unload washing machine for flatmate
Moonbars says:
things are good
Moonbars says:
do u have any progress to report with the border?
Plato says:
yes
Plato says:
I have studied the proposal you sent along with several in the Horde
Plato says:
I have a question of two
Plato says:
The line was to go between Nirvana and U2 right?
Moonbars says:
yeah
Plato says:
your map shows the ruins of Nirvana in your sphere
Moonbars says:
do u want to settle there?
Plato says:
We have been talking of the tile just north of there. We were originally considering that location, but when we say your city sites, we felt there might be undue cultural problems for both of us
Moonbars says:
so u are proposing to settle 2 of the elephant?
Plato says:
2,1
Moonbars says:
so 7 from Nirvana
Plato says:
yes. That is what is being proposed now
Plato says:
on the mine
Moonbars says:
and resettle abba location, or somewhere else?
Plato says:
we feel we will capture Abba
Moonbars says:
lol, I doubt it
Plato says:
hehe...we have a plan. It includes you guys though. Working together we will do great things
Moonbars says:
what's the plan?
Plato says:
Well, as you know I am not the general type. I think a co-ordinated attack is being discussed where neithier of us will have to sacrifice all our units, but neithier of us will walk away bloodless
Moonbars says:
lol, I am not sure we have commited any troops beyond Beachboys.
Plato says:
I thought you guys wanted bards destroyed?
Moonbars says:
Abba was to be the Horde responsibility
Plato says:
Not sure we can do it by ourselves
Moonbars says:
you need us to do all the fighting again?
Plato says:
I am sure we will take the brunt of it, but we be allies in this cause, right?
Plato says:
No, not asking you to fight FOR us, but WITH us.
Plato says:
Together we can rule this world...at odds we do nothing but give everybody else the advantage
Moonbars says:
hum, well you would have to take that to Aqua. I dont see what our force in the area can really do, except get attacked by Euphirca as the weaker of the two stacks
Moonbars says:
the original plan was we'd march to U2 and Beachboys, and you'd do the rest
Plato says:
Like I said, I not the general type and things still under discussion
Moonbars says:
not sure we'll be in a position to fight so that you can win Abba
Plato says:
I know. If we have to go alone, we will. Not trying to change any agreement
Plato says:
Just trying to build a fair and equal alliance
Moonbars says:
good. so assuming you either capture or resettle abba, that's a pretty good border
Moonbars says:
how is it equal when we do the fighting, and you win all the cities?
Plato says:
Many misunderstandings in the past by many. Now is time for us to come together and be of one mind as great allies
Plato says:
We NOT asking you to do all the fighting. We will take brunt of things as I said earlier
Moonbars says:
so assuming you either capture or resettle abba, that is a pretty good border
Moonbars says:
goof to hear
Moonbars says:
good
Plato says:
Truthe be told, we will accept your boarder as is, but would like 6,7,8 Nirvana moved back a tile
Plato says:
makes for a smoother boarder anyway and allows us to settle 7 Nirvana without undue cultural problems
Moonbars says:
if you plan to settle 7 of nirvana, that is fine
Moonbars says:
your border was impossible to create
Plato says:
Okay, so we have agreement then? Your map with 6,7,8 Nirvana moved back one tile?
Moonbars says:
i am not clear what u mean by that
Plato says:
My boarder was Horde fluff over Nirvan-U2 line being out of previous agreement. Consider it stuff for the trash can
Moonbars says:
7 and 8 of nirvana are already on your side in my border
Plato says:
oops my error
Plato says:
let e restate
Plato says:
Ruins of Nirvana and tiles 1, and 9 of ruins. My bad
Moonbars says:
yes, that is fine
Plato says:
Moonbars says:
the tile 99 of nirvana may end up swapping about
Plato says:
That is no problem
Moonbars says:
as may the one 999 of nirvana
Moonbars says:
one each on either of our sides, so is some balance there
Plato says:
These are minor issues among friends
Moonbars says:
agreed
Plato says:
Okay, I will ask Paddy to draw up a final boarder as I am no good with these maps and send it to you for confirmation
Moonbars says:
we will likely move the white city site south a tile
Moonbars says:
or possibly 3
Plato says:
yes, eithier will allow us the long awaited trade route to be built
Moonbars says:
Plato says:
I am looking for ways that we can increase our co-operation and communication. It seems that we have had many misunderstandings of each other and I would like a new era in our relationship. Do you have any ideas for this I can present to the Horde?
Moonbars says:
we in DR are straight to the point sorts, pragmatic and unable to get drawn into blown out discussion. It would help if you took some of Aqua's comments to hearts - In talks, if we want 5 and you want 7, don't start by asking for 15, just ask for 7 and we can settle for 6.
Plato says:
haha...good advice. Knowing each other better is the key
Moonbars says:
agreed
Plato says:
I will make sure that all dealings from our side are fair and to the point. I am sure that we can expect the same?
Moonbars says:
naturally
Plato says:
Okay then. I am off to the council hall to have the map drawn. Any other pressing matters we need to discuss?
Moonbars says:
dont think so
Plato says:
Thanks for the chat then. I look forward to the future.
Moonbars says:
*waves*
Plato says:
Bye
Moonbars says:
off out now
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05-08-2005 07:51
Attachment: 
Plato, a true master of diplomacy.
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