07-08-2005 07:33									#31
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What I find interesting is the number of people today who question the judgement on the use of the bomb. The only people who can really say weather or not it saved lives is the people who were alive then, especially the Japanese. From an article I read today (from a local newspaper) it stated that a vast majority thought that it saved lives.

Additionally, it was used when there were only two (or maybe it was 3) in exsistance. If the US had not used it when they did, it very well could have been used when there were ALOT more around to be used (ie: during a conventional war with USSR), saving untold millions of more lives. (but this line of thought just leads to unsupportable speculation)

	07-08-2005 07:39									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Bereta_Eder It belongs in a museum.

It's the name of the family's dog!

Sophia!

	07-08-2005 12:32									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Verto It should be celebrated as the end of the war, because it was.

Then in this same vein, you shouldn't be angry at any person celebrating Sept. 11th in the Mid-East.

Don't get me wrong, I believe (strongly) that the Japanese government should fess up to their wartime atrocities. Neither do I support all these fundamentalist wackjobs spouting their rhetoric. But what I do want is for some friggin acknowledgement that hey, the A-bomb was overkill.

Did they kill more than enough civilians and military people than was necessary? Dunno.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not some bleeding heart liberal, I support our troops now and support the American government, and I want them to kick some major terrorist ass... but I'll be damned if I'm going to be told droping the A-bomb was the best thing to happen to humanity since sliced bread.

	07-08-2005 12:37									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan Then in this same vein, you shouldn't be angry at any person celebrating Sept. 11th in the Mid-East. Don't get me wrong, I believe (strongly) that the Japanese government should fess up to their wartime atrocities. Neither do I support all these fundamentalist wackjobs spouting their rhetoric. But what I do want is for some friggin acknowledgement that hey, the A-bomb was overkill. Did they kill more than enough civilians and military people than was necessary? Dunno. And don't get me wrong, I'm not some bleeding heart liberal, I support our troops now and support the American government, and I want them to kick some major terrorist ass... but I'll be damned if I'm going to be told droping the A-bomb was the best thing to happen to humanity since sliced bread.

I have no problem with people celebrating 9/11. I feel the attack is completely justified (I've already had another thread on this- so don't jack this one). They have to fight with the only means they have at their disposal. I don't expect everyone to like the U.S., I do expect some to fight back.

But I don't actually celebrate the bombing of Hirshimo. How could anyone do that? I merely observe it. It's important to remember the destruction that occured there so we don't repeat the same thing. Those people did not die in vain. I'm certain their deaths prevented WW3 (conventional and/or nuclear ww3).

I observe this just as I observe the liberation of concentration camps. We must not forget these things....

	07-08-2005 12:42									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Dis I have no problem with people celebrating 9/11. I feel the attack is completely justified (I've already had another thread on this- so don't jack this one). They have to fight with the only means they have at their disposal. I don't expect everyone to like the U.S., I do expect some to fight back. But I don't actually celebrate the bombing of Hirshimo. How could anyone do that? I merely observe it. It's important to remember the destruction that occured there so we don't repeat the same thing. Those people did not die in vain. I'm certain their deaths prevented WW3 (conventional and/or nuclear ww3). I observe this just as I observe the liberation of concentration camps. We must not forget these things....

See? At least you get it.

What's pissing me off is that people aren't looking at the plane and seeing how much death's it caused, only that plane=A drops bomb=B, thereby ending war=C.

	07-08-2005 14:39									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan See? At least you get it. What's pissing me off is that people aren't looking at the plane and seeing how much death's it caused, only that plane=A drops bomb=B, thereby ending war=C.

I look at it and see the fighting it stopped.

	07-08-2005 15:08									#37
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I'm not going to enter the goodthing/evil debate but just as a reminder of what we are talking about:

Attachment: h02.jpg
This has been downloaded 82 time(s).

	07-08-2005 16:04									#38
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Yeah Hueij that was quite unfortunate for that one now wasn't it?

AND???=

	07-08-2005 16:24									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar I look at it and see the fighting it stopped.

not the suffering it caused ? even for many years after the event ?

	07-08-2005 18:07									#40
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I have as of yet to see people partying in the streets celebrating the bombings or the Enola Gay. I do, however, see people taking time to reflect on what happened.

Good/bad/indifferent, the Enola Gay is forever a significant part of human history and should be preserved in a museum.

	07-08-2005 19:30									#41
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quote: Originally posted by dannubis not the suffering it caused ? even for many years after the event ?

Speaking as a Guy whose Great-uncle was captured in the Phillippines in 42 and spent 3 years in a Japanese prision camp...no, no I don't.

	07-08-2005 19:55									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan Then in this same vein, you shouldn't be angry at any person celebrating Sept. 11th in the Mid-East.

Because that ended a war?

Seems like it started one...

quote: And don't get me wrong, I'm not some bleeding heart liberal,

Yes you are.

	07-08-2005 20:18									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan Then in this same vein, you shouldn't be angry at any person celebrating Sept. 11th in the Mid-East. Don't get me wrong, I believe (strongly) that the Japanese government should fess up to their wartime atrocities. Neither do I support all these fundamentalist wackjobs spouting their rhetoric. But what I do want is for some friggin acknowledgement that hey, the A-bomb was overkill. Did they kill more than enough civilians and military people than was necessary? Dunno. And don't get me wrong, I'm not some bleeding heart liberal, I support our troops now and support the American government, and I want them to kick some major terrorist ass... but I'll be damned if I'm going to be told droping the A-bomb was the best thing to happen to humanity since sliced bread.

I don't think you have been told by anyone here that dropping the A-Bomb was the best hing to happen to humanity since sliced bread. However, I will tell you and everyone else it was the best thing that happened to the Allies who had been fighting a global war against enemies who would not have hesitated to use that same weapon if they'd had the technology. In war, the lives of your own soldiers and citizens take priority over those of your enemy. The Axis had started the war, and refused to surrender when faced with an inevitable (and costly for both sides) defeat. We applied what we did to Germany -bombing the hell out of everything still standing not only because the Nazis were trying to move factory equipment into civilian housing, but also because the only way to win unconditionally was to completely destroy any hope for victory still held by the German people. We took this concept to the Pacific front, but instead of using a lot of bombs, we used a couple big ones. The radiation and other side effects were unknown at the time, so it is unfair to bring that into the argument, but even if we knew then what we know now, I would argue in favor of dropping the bombs, exactly as we did before - not over an already leveled city that used to be of military significance, but over whatever cities were still standing and intact, as it was the only way to show the Japanese government that their plans to fight to the death of every man,woman and child on th Home Islands would not succeed.

	07-08-2005 20:34									#44
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The U.S. hoped that using the bombs would end the war before the Soviets were due to DOW on Japan. They didn't. Japanese records show that it was the Soviet DOW and the IJA's collapse in Manchuria, that finally convinced Japan that holding out was futile, especially when coupled with the American bombs.

As a pracitcal matter, the bombs may have hastened the war's end. The American reasons for using the bomb, however, were not as pristine and pure as our nationalists pretend. It was Cold War politics, not the lives of American and Japanese soldiers and civilians that concerned them.

	07-08-2005 20:38									#45
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Yes, I'm sure there was absolutely no concern for saving American lives in Truman's mind.

	07-08-2005 21:05									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan Then in this same vein, you shouldn't be angry at any person celebrating Sept. 11th in the Mid-East. Don't get me wrong, I believe (strongly) that the Japanese government should fess up to their wartime atrocities. Neither do I support all these fundamentalist wackjobs spouting their rhetoric. But what I do want is for some friggin acknowledgement that hey, the A-bomb was overkill. Did they kill more than enough civilians and military people than was necessary? Dunno. And don't get me wrong, I'm not some bleeding heart liberal, I support our troops now and support the American government, and I want them to kick some major terrorist ass... but I'll be damned if I'm going to be told droping the A-bomb was the best thing to happen to humanity since sliced bread.

No one is celebrating like those in the mid east and you damn well know it. Your comparison is stupid. Show me a scene where Americans are out dancing to the deaths of all those civilians and I
ll grant you your comparison. It was a damned bad thing to do to a people but fire bombing them into obilivion wasn't a great alternative either. Neither was killing them one by one in the streets. Killing is killing no matter how you do it so please stop the crap about how it was so much worse than what we were already doing to them and would have had to do.

	07-08-2005 21:56									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar Speaking as a Guy whose Great-uncle was captured in the Phillippines in 42 and spent 3 years in a Japanese prision camp...no, no I don't.

good for you

just food for thought though: my grandfather and his mother before him spent several years in prison during ww1 and ww2. and i didn't notice any hate comming from them.

	07-08-2005 22:14									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Yes, I'm sure there was absolutely no concern for saving American lives in Truman's mind.

If all he wanted to do was save American lives, they could have starved Japan out, instead of invading it. It would be a monsterous alternative, but strictly speaking, there was no real reason to risk any more American lives.

They deliberately schedualed the bombings before the Soviet DoW, in hopes of ending the war without the USSR's help. They could have waited a few weeks to see what effect the Soviet invasion would have, especially since the only thing keeping Japan in the war was the hope that the USSR would mediate for them.

	08-08-2005 01:17									#49
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If all he wanted to do was save American lives, they could have starved Japan out, instead of invading it. It would be a monsterous alternative, but strictly speaking, there was no real reason to risk any more American lives. They deliberately schedualed the bombings before the Soviet DoW, in hopes of ending the war without the USSR's help. They could have waited a few weeks to see what effect the Soviet invasion would have, especially since the only thing keeping Japan in the war was the hope that the USSR would mediate for them.

how would that have saved lives? Think man! That would have required a naval blockade which would have been subject to: yep you guessed it, kamikaze attacks.

Sure it would be less lives lost than an army/marine land invasion. But the lives lost to kamikaze attacks were not insignificant.

The Japanese war machines was not completely dead. It's not like were were fighting Iraq or something

	08-08-2005 02:14									#50
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quote: Originally posted by dannubis good for you just food for thought though: my grandfather and his mother before him spent several years in prison during ww1 and ww2. and i didn't notice any hate comming from them.

Who said anything about Hate? I'm just commenting that, unlike Deliberate prisioner mistreatment on the part of the Japanese, our goal in the use of the A-bombs was to expeditie the end of the war by any means, not any wanton cruelty on our part.


Incidently, Che, the reason why The Soviets declared war when they did was because they feared that our use of Atmoic Bombs would end the war before they could grab their share of the spoils. While I won't discount the massive ass-whupping the Red Army handed the Japanese, I think it was the triple -whammy of Bomb, Soviet Invasion of Manchuria, bomb that did it, with heavy emphasize on the bombs.

	08-08-2005 02:16									#51
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I don't think the Soviets knew we had an atom bomb. At least not until August 6, 1945.

And you can't justify killing Japanese civilians because of what happened at the bataan death march or prisoner camps. Or even the rape of Nanking (not that the U.S. cared about that). The Japanese civilians had nothing to do with that.

Instead, I feel it was okay to kill civilians in this case because it ended the war saving millions of japanese and american lives. It showed the horrific results of use of such a weapon (though this probably wasn't a consideration beforehand- it was in hindsight that this is a good thing); helping reduce the chances of the use of a nuclear weapon in all the years since then against another nation. And of course the threat of nuclear weapons preventing any conventional war with another nuclear power.

Last edited by Dis on 08-08-2005 at 02:23

	08-08-2005 02:18									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Dis I don't think the Soviets knew we had an atom bomb. At least not until August 6, 1945.

They did. They just didn't know when we were going to use it, that's why they Invaded the day after the first bombing.

	08-08-2005 02:20									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Dis how would that have saved lives? Think man! That would have required a naval blockade which would have been subject to: yep you guessed it, kamikaze attacks.

Kamakazis weren't very effective against subs.

	08-08-2005 02:22									#54
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Kamakazis weren't very effective against subs.

and don't think the Japanese sub fleet was affected. In fact, the cruiser (it might have been a frigate or destroyer actually) that carried the 2 atom bombs to the island (I can't remember where the enola gay took off from- it may have been okinawa- but I think it was one further away) was almost sunk by a japanese submarine.

	08-08-2005 02:23									#55
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IIRC, you're thinking of the Indianapolis which had it's bow blown off.

	08-08-2005 02:24									#56
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara IIRC, you're thinking of the Indianapolis which had it's bow blown off.

you're right. I believe it was attacked on the return trip after delivering the 2 atom bombs.

	08-08-2005 02:28									#57
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While the dancing in the streets comparison might be a little stretch, there are people that celebrate the dropping of the bombs. The "coming of the atomic era".

quote: Originally posted by Lonestar Speaking as a Guy whose Great-uncle was captured in the Phillippines in 42 and spent 3 years in a Japanese prision camp...no, no I don't.

See? You kind of know where I'm coming from. Hell yeah I'm pissed off that the Imperial Japanese Military committed all those atrocities. That isn't the touted "honorable" thing to do, nor is it the so-called samurai way that many of them tried to believe themselves as. For me, it's the same thing. The Japanese government basically ignores the suffering their troops caused. Underline concentration camps for emphasis. The japanese government should fess up.

It's the same thing for me. I don't think the American government is looking at how the plane symbolizes all the suffering it caused.

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Because that ended a war? Seems like it started one...

Not because it ended a war, but that it showed that America can be hurt and that the "Great Beast" can be wounded. And NO, I don't support people who celebrate this stuff.

quote: Originally posted by Sprayber No one is celebrating like those in the mid east and you damn well know it. Your comparison is stupid. Show me a scene where Americans are out dancing to the deaths of all those civilians and I ll grant you your comparison. It was a damned bad thing to do to a people but fire bombing them into obilivion wasn't a great alternative either. Neither was killing them one by one in the streets. Killing is killing no matter how you do it so please stop the crap about how it was so much worse than what we were already doing to them and would have had to do.

Yeah, there's no American's out dancing but there are a bunch that say "Well...those damn Japs got what they deserved." It might not be so blatant, but it IS there. But then again, I'm not saying that everyone is celebrating but it's the fact that there's no compassion for all those civilian dead.

I'm not saying that it wasn't necessary. And neither am I saying that Truman was evil and should be demonized. What I am trying to say, and I'm obviously failing, is that I'm tired of people (not all) looking at the bombing and the plane as nothing more than event...not even taking into consideration the people that died on BOTH sides.

Hell, I had family on both sides of the war fighting. 442nd anyone? What I want is people to at least say, hey-maybe they are looking at this plane in a different way than we are.

	08-08-2005 03:02									#58
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quote: [SIZE=1] Yeah, there's no American's out dancing but there are a bunch that say "Well...those damn Japs got what they deserved." It might not be so blatant, but it IS there. But then again, I'm not saying that everyone is celebrating but it's the fact that there's no compassion for all those civilian dead.

what do you want Franky? What sort of contrition would make you feel better? I have plenty of compassion for the ordinary civilians but those from Hiroshama deserve no more than the ones from Tokyo who were fire bombed or the ones that would have starved under various blockade plans or those that would have died from an American invasion. Death is death.

quote: I'm not saying that it wasn't necessary. And neither am I saying that Truman was evil and should be demonized. What I am trying to say, and I'm obviously failing, is that I'm tired of people (not all) looking at the bombing and the plane as nothing more than event...not even taking into consideration the people that died on BOTH sides.

Looking at it as merely and event is bound to happen. Same way we look at the sack of Rome where people undoubtedly suffered terribly. A 100 years from now 9-11 will be seen as just another event despite the very personal tragedies that occured that day.

quote: Hell, I had family on both sides of the war fighting. 442nd anyone? What I want is people to at least say, hey-maybe they are looking at this plane in a different way than we are.

I'm sure they do look at it in a different way, I don't think anyone doubts that. But I don't see why that means the plane should be shut up in a warehouse or sold into scrap. It should be very visible along with reminders exactly what dropping the bombs did both in the large picture and at the more personal level. But just scrapping it and pretending that there was never an Enola Gay is short sighted.

	09-08-2005 01:21									#59
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Anybody read Joi Ito's op-ed?

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/07/o...=rssnyt&emc=rss

	09-08-2005 02:20									#60
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quote: especially since the only thing keeping Japan in the war was the hope that the USSR would mediate for them.

Patently false statemet.

The secret mediation between the Soviets and Japan failed not long after Potsdam, even with the Soviets trying to string Japan along.