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Frankychan
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In the Kingdom of Hawaii (CPA Member)
Sep 2001
time: 19:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Sprayber
what do you want Franky? What sort of contrition would make you feel better? I have plenty of compassion for the ordinary civilians but those from Hiroshama deserve no more than the ones from Tokyo who were fire bombed or the ones that would have starved under various blockade plans or those that would have died from an American invasion. Death is death. |
You know what dude? I don't think anything would make it better. Neither would it make things better if all those American soldiers in the Japanese camps make things better. Both sides got screwed. My FAMILY got screwed, both on the 442nd as well as the IJA side. Well, see? at least you can see that ok, dying from an atomic bomb blast is EXTREMELY screwed up. I just don't like how so many can joke about "let's just nuke these insert racial ethnicity". Yeah, the A-bombs preserved more life than most people say...but what pisses me off is that many peeps can joke about getting nuked (especially "them Japs") and take it in stride.
(and YES, I do have sympathy for those ppl interned by the IJA...that's just ONE MORE STAIN on the hypocritical IJA stance  )
quote:
Looking at it as merely and event is bound to happen. Same way we look at the sack of Rome where people undoubtedly suffered terribly. A 100 years from now 9-11 will be seen as just another event despite the very personal tragedies that occured that day. |
And that is what anger's me. You don't SEE the people...all you see is the numbers...(ala Stalin). All it is, is just an event. Nevermind its the first time an atomic bomb is dropped on humanity. Nevermind the fact that skin is basically charcoaled. Kids are drinking irradiated water. All it is, is numbers. And yes, I've been guilty of doing this...and I don't like it at all.
quote:
I'm sure they do look at it in a different way, I don't think anyone doubts that. But I don't see why that means the plane should be shut up in a warehouse or sold into scrap. It should be very visible along with reminders exactly what dropping the bombs did both in the large picture and at the more personal level. But just scrapping it and pretending that there was never an Enola Gay is short sighted. |
Ok, well like it was said before...all it said was that ok "Plane-A dropped bomb-B and then war-C ended". If that museum said that ok, this plane dropped a bomb never before seen in human existence and tens of thousands of Japanese civilians died...etc etc" then at least it would be ok.
Frig. Just point out that this plane caused tens of thousands of lives lost would AT THE VERY LEAST say that, hey....we f***ed up, lemme try figure out how we can pay em back." would be ok.
And same thing goes for the IJA interned prisoners. Do I want them to be compensated? Hell friggin yeah! But it was all about politics then...
...as sad is it may be.
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Sprayber
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Dixie
Oct 2000
time: 23:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Frankychan
You know what dude? I don't think anything would make it better. Neither would it make things better if all those American soldiers in the Japanese camps make things better. Both sides got screwed. My FAMILY got screwed, both on the 442nd as well as the IJA side. Well, see? at least you can see that ok, dying from an atomic bomb blast is EXTREMELY screwed up. I just don't like how so many can joke about "let's just nuke these insert racial ethnicity". Yeah, the A-bombs preserved more life than most people say...but what pisses me off is that many peeps can joke about getting nuked (especially "them Japs") and take it in stride.
(and YES, I do have sympathy for those ppl interned by the IJA...that's just ONE MORE STAIN on the hypocritical IJA stance )
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Jokes are going to happen Franky. Your taking a few braindead people who joke about japs getting nuked and your projecting it on the whole American people. Not everyone feels that way. There are a few American serviceman from WW2 who absoultely hate the Japanese to this day. No amount of explaining how situations are different is going to change that. My grandfather felt that way about the Germans for a very long time and would still make comments about them and the Japanese way into my childhood. And after all the things him and his buddies had to do, I don't feal as if I have the right to judge him about it. I don't share the same fealings as he did because I have the advantage of growing up in a vastly different world he did.
The bombing of hiroshma is no more brutal IMO than the firebombings of Tokyo or the devastation the Japanese dealt out on China. Your trying to isolate the Atomic bombings from the rest of the war and I don't think that you can. Southerners here in the states like to hiss at the memory of Sherman and his march to the sea by conviently isolating it from the rest of an equally brutal war. World War 2 caused many countries to abandon a lot of who they were. In order to win it, a great deal of terrible **** had to be done. It may seem rather unfeeling of me to say this but I'm glad events turned out like they did and I'mthankfull that I didn't have to make those decisions.
quote:
And that is what anger's me. You don't SEE the people...all you see is the numbers...(ala Stalin). All it is, is just an event. Nevermind its the first time an atomic bomb is dropped on humanity. Nevermind the fact that skin is basically charcoaled. Kids are drinking irradiated water. All it is, is numbers. And yes, I've been guilty of doing this...and I don't like it at all. |
I've watched many things on TV regarding the Japanese civilians and there are many resources out there IF your willing to look. I'm sorry the vast majority of people don't take the time to use those things but that is how it goes. People move on with their lives and most don't want to spend their time in the past when they got barely enough time to take care of the present. I'm sorry, it's just how it goes. Everything gets reduces to dates and vital statistics sooner or later.
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Ok, well like it was said before...all it said was that ok "Plane-A dropped bomb-B and then war-C ended". If that museum said that ok, this plane dropped a bomb never before seen in human existence and tens of thousands of Japanese civilians died...etc etc" then at least it would be ok.
Frig. Just point out that this plane caused tens of thousands of lives lost would AT THE VERY LEAST say that, hey....we f***ed up, lemme try figure out how we can pay em back." would be ok. |
Franky, your nitpicking. I don't know what the display said but what your really wanting is for them to get down on their knees and repent for the terrible sin they committed and its not going to happen.
quote:
And same thing goes for the IJA interned prisoners. Do I want them to be compensated? Hell friggin yeah! But it was all about politics then...
...as sad is it may be. |
I don't understand who you want to be compensated.  The only Japanese who deserve any compensation are those Japanese Americans who were interned by the goverment during the war. I can understand the paronoia but it wasn't right what they did and they should be apologized to which IIRC that has already taken place. As for Allied POWs, you won't find many people more sympathic to their ordeal than me but I'm not sure that they should get compensation or not.
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Q Cubed
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t3h y3ll0w p3ril
Apr 1999
time: 23:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Patroklos
What the plaque should read is "Because of the barbarism and wonton aggression of the Japanese people, we were forced to incinerate them by the tens of thounsands for the good of man kind." |
1. It's wanton, not wonton. Wontons are something you eat at a Chinese restaurant. Wanton means "excessive".
2. There are ways of phrasing it so as to not ruffle feathers. For instance: "Due to the unrestrained and wanton aggression of the Japanese Imperial Forces, America was forced to use a new and terrible weapon to roll back their Fascist advance for the benefit of Democracy everywhere."
3. Barbarism? I'll grant that there are instances of barbarism before and during the war, but all of them were perpetrated by the Japanese Military, not the Japanese people themselves.
4. Mankind is one word, not two. Whether it was for the "good" of mankind or not, we can at least all agree that it changed history.
5. While I agree that revisionism is bothersome--I've got grave issues with how the Fifteen Year War [WW2] is portrayed in Japan--it's also entirely possible to show something called tact and class when writing summaries. Your summary shows none of that, but rather a belligerant, crude, offensive, and almost hateful summary. It's almost as bad as how Japan whitewashes its sins.
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Q Cubed
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t3h y3ll0w p3ril
Apr 1999
time: 23:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Patroklos
As it was meant to, except for the crude and hateful parts which are not attributes applicable to that statement. |
Okay. Maybe I'll grant you that it's not crude. But it is hateful, unless you happen to be some bigot. Besides, I'm still not sure whether you intended that pun or not.
Bigots
Proper spelling, which isn't necessarily something a grammar nazi does 
quote:
Nore does any of that make it not true. |
How about this summary:
"In a display of outright and brutal military superiority, the American people, largely Caucasian at the time, decided to put the whole world on alert as to their global supremacist ambitions by annihialting two whole cities, mostly civilians, with a weapon of destruction that is unmatched in scale, savagery, and lingering effects."
It's "true", but it's also quite a twisted viewpoint--not unlike yours.
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A military is nothing more than a cross section of the population is is recruited from. That includes the bad and the good. |
And the American military is supposed to be the elite, is it not? Way to go, Abu Ghraib.
quote:
In this instance the IJA was made up of conscripts so even more so. If the IJA proved itself to be a brutal and aggressive force (amoungst other things) it is because those attributes were present in the people and culture as a whole. |
You're talking to someone whose family was involved in the Korean Resistance from 1905-1935. I know quite well what the Japanese military was capable of, being colonial aggressors and all--a colonization that was tacitly condoned by the American president, Theodore Roosevelt.
quote:
So I suppose the German people should feel no responsibilty for the Holocaust? |
Hey, genius--you didn't even read my post, did you? Where in there did you miss the whole, "I have grave issues with the way Japan whitewashes its history" bit? I guess I didn't make that point clear.
Do you know why I'm not as upset with Germany? Because they've made it a point of their education to underscore just how evil Hitler's regime was. Japan, on the other hand, tries to whitewash their textbooks every few years.
That's why when you read Joi Ito's op-ed, which I linked to, it's somewhat disheartening.
But of course, since you don't read my posts in their entirety, I figure you missed the sub-tull nuances there.
Reading Comprehension
===
Make no mistake--I'm in the school of thought that thinks the dropping of the first atomic bomb was right. Personally, there are two reasons--one is the nationalistic, knee-jerk "bright bomb day" reaction, which still exists, even if it's been lessened as of late; but there's the whole military strategy bit, which I also accept.
All I'm taking issue with is your "summary", which is rather hateful. You may not actually have any hate when you wrote it, but when it's read, it comes across as spiteful, arrogant, and bigoted.
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09-08-2005 14:01
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