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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:37
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Az
q]
as for why jews shouldnt remain in Gaze, i would think thats frightfully obvious - if they stay, and the Pal Authorities abuse them, or are accused of abusing them, that creates another point of friction between israel and the PA. [/q]
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It's their choice - if they want to stay, why not let them? The fact that it's a "friction point" is meaningless. Arab Israelis are also a "friction point". Forcing them out of their houses now would still be a crime. |
Israel treats them as citizens, and Israel is stable democratic polity. Jews in Gaza would be seen as foreigners, and would be a football in internal Pal politics. Even if PA tried to protect them theyd be vulnerable to Hamas. It would be a disaster.
Note you asked why they had to leave - not what the legalities are.
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I might add, that, as a Zionist, its good for Jews to live in the State of Israel. Its hard for foreigners without the language or connections, but for people living in the state, to depart the state, is hardly a Zionist act. Of course these folks seem to be more attached to the land of Israel than to the State of Israel. Thats a novum. There was a time, not so long ago, when the state did NOT control all the land between the Jordan and the Sea. at that time, aliyah was always defined as moving to the STATE of Israel. A diaspora Jew who desired to move to Hebron or Nablus to live under the King of Jordan, would have been considered unZionist, not to mention insane. |
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Don't forget that these people operate under the idea, that they won't exactly live in a peaceful fantasy land, but in a violent gaza strip. I share that assessment vis a vis what will happen when the IDF withdraws. Also, it's possible that these people would rather establish themselves as a force within a palestinian government.
"You might as well say that arabs that consider themselves palestinian in Israel are hurting their national cause by staying.  |
I have no difficulty with idea of a demographic swap. I would point out however, that their demographic situation is rather different from ours.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:37
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Az
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Israel treats them as citizens, and Israel is stable democratic polity. Jews in Gaza would be seen as foreigners, and would be a football in internal Pal politics. Even if PA tried to protect them theyd be vulnerable to Hamas. It would be a disaster.
Note you asked why they had to leave - not what the legalities are. |
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If your assumption is that we're disengaging and leaving behind a million savage murderers, we shouldn't be disengaging in the first place. |
Not a million savage murderers, but a very complex political situation, a weak political authority, and a small number of savage murderes, who have the off and on support of about one third of the population. I think its going to be a mess there for some time. I cant prove to you its a good idea - among other things i havent followed the military situation in Gaza as closely as I suspect you have, and so cant speak to the incrementatl value of bases in Gaza. I think its clear though, that having made the decision to withdraw, leaving settlers behind would be a mistake.
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:37
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Az, since you see the disengagement rather negatively - what is in your opinion the reason behind Sharon's plan? I mean he must be aware of the criticism as well......so why is he doing it, completely other assessment of the situation (probably), outside pressure or else? |
Remove the spotlight from the fact that his corruption cases were nearing court - campaign finance scams, 'which he knew nothing about',  , and the case where his son was hired as a "paid consultant" for browsing the intenet, looking for bussiness opportunities. Incidentally, Sharon attempted to use his diplomatic clout ( this was in the mid 90s), to help the bussinessman who hired his son, get building permits in one of those 3rd world countries ( Greece ), to create a megalomaniac casino and hotel complex.
And I think that plenty of the press, and the State Attorney's office are cutting him some slack for that.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:37
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quote:
Originally posted by boann
az , its never about the noble cause is it..
govt is corrupt everywhere.
why does anyone think israel leaving gaza will solve
anything.. it won't.. when they have the gaza it won't be enough.. even today in the news..
"On Tuesday, Palestinian militants marched through the streets of a town in southern Gaza flanking the settlements, and vowed the Israeli withdrawal would be the first step toward eliminating Israel"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050816...el_palestinians
taken from this news report |
I dont think Mr. Sharon, or anyone who is really familiar would have expected anything different from Hamas. Unlike what some here believe, Hamas is a terrorist group, that is NOT interested in ending the occupation, but in the total destruction of Israel.
The real questions are not Hamas, but A. What will the PA do? Israel has made a unilateral withdrawl - the PA wants to move on to negotiations about the West Bank - they must show they can maintain order in Gaza, prevent it from being used as a terror base, and prevent Hamas from acting as a terrorist organization.
B. How will the rest of the world respond? Will they see and acknowledge this painful unilateral withdrawl, and push for movement by the PA that can advance the peace process?
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:37
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boann:
Yeah, but their bluff should be called by the media, and sadly, they don't in that case, for purely political reasons - they support this act, in fact so much, that they're willing to "let the corruption slide". ( There are a couple of brave souls, but they're the minority )
Sandman:
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I'm fairly surprised that Az is advocating what essentially amounts to a libertarian solution; withdraw and let them fight it out, in a vicious nano-war which will destabilise the entire region.
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Yeah, well, even libertarians are right, twice a day. 
It's just as "destabilizing" as taking them out- You thing that a mini-war of Israel retaking the strip circa mid-2006 is much better? The fighting, if such will be, will be shortlived. You won't have a protracted conflict like this will happen now - It will be a major assault wave by Hamas, that will have to act to prove a point, that will be undoubtably broken - because they can't fight for ****. Then, a couple of clashes, perhaps a settler+sympathizer counterattack, and a pacification of the strip will be achieved.
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:37
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quote: originally posted by Az
I actually see nothing destabilizing in the long run about this. |
Of course, all the remaining Jews will be dead. Stable.
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:37
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If the settlers were left to their own devices (and thus thoroughly killed by the Palestinian guerilla), the Israelis wouldn't stand idle during the slaughter. And war will happen again.
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Dude, the "palestinian guerillas" are a bunch of pussies, esp. on the offensive. The settlers, and their sympathizers will include a large number of former regular combat troops, and they won't use their pinky when fighting Hamas, like the regular army. Also, the settlers can secure armaments from the shore. Plus, I bet there will be plenty of volounteers to help the settlers, so they won't be lacking in manpower during their fights.
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I see nothing wrong with the removal of the settlements. The Army won't have to protect such useless objectives, and will be able to focus on its work in a more subtle way.
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What do you mean by that? IDF isn't in the city in Gaza or Rafah, or Khan Yunis. It's just falling back to behind positions, that will change nothing in the way the frontline is protected - but will leave us with less field intelligence.
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The disengagement allows Israel to remove its grunts from the territories, a job that the Palestinian forces will take over |
Abu Mazen doesn't have the balls to use his troops - he's afraid to cause a civil war. I am not optimistic.
They need an Altalena - But Abu Mazen doesn't have the balls, apparently.
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Az
Dude, the "palestinian guerillas" are a bunch of pussies, esp. on the offensive. The settlers, and their sympathizers will include a large number of former regular combat troops, and they won't use their pinky when fighting Hamas, like the regular army. Also, the settlers can secure armaments from the shore. |
Will the settlers have the resources required to buy a fleet of helicopters, fighters and tanks? I doubt it. Failing that, I doubt they'll last long under an open bombing from Hamas' mortars. That is, until the Israeli military arrives.
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What do you mean by that? IDF isn't in the city in Gaza or Rafah, or Khan Yunis. |
Yes, but it's in the territory of the Gaza strip, and the settlers + soldiers are a useless and diplomatically absurd objective to protect.
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It's just falling back to behind positions, that will change nothing in the way the frontline is protected |
You won't have to protect a slew of pockets within hostile territory. It's good news.
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but will leave us with less field intelligence. |
I am wholly unconvinced by the relationship you established between the occupation and the field intelligence. Spies can operate in unoccupied territory.
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Abu Mazen doesn't have the balls to use his troops - he's afraid to cause a civil war. I am not optimistic. |
This is not what I meant. The fight against the terrorists will be done by Israel. However, the IDF will have no "police" job left in the area. Israel will use its spies and its airpower in Gaza, but there will be no jobs that require Israeli grunts anymore. Unless you believe that an actual war will start from Gaza.
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16-08-2005 00:06
I come back when it works better....
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