17-08-2005 03:58									#121
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I suppose Jews could always slip back into the Gaza Strip after the disengagement, when the Israeli government isn't as focused on it anymore and resettle the area that way. Then it won't be Israel's problem anymore.

	17-08-2005 11:52									#122
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP I suppose Jews could always slip back into the Gaza Strip after the disengagement, when the Israeli government isn't as focused on it anymore and resettle the area that way. Then it won't be Israel's problem anymore.

Nah. They are settling there to ensure that the land stays Israeli. If Israel says "we're not interested", there is no point in being there. Besides, they would get themselves killed faster than you can say Neve Dekalim.

	17-08-2005 12:03									#123
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quote: Will the settlers have the resources required to buy a fleet of helicopters, fighters and tanks? I doubt it. Failing that, I doubt they'll last long under an open bombing from Hamas' mortars. That is, until the Israeli military arrives.

My fricking point - they won't need to, because they'll use small arms fire much more often. They won't have rules of engagement stopping them. And Hamas' mortars are few, and far between - and will be countered with mortars, too. You people think that Hamas is some lean mean fighting machine, while it's really really not. That's why they use suicide bombers, remember?

quote: Yes, but it's in the territory of the Gaza strip, and the settlers + soldiers are a useless and diplomatically absurd objective to protect.

Why so?

quote: You won't have to protect a slew of pockets within hostile territory. It's good news.

Most of the settlements, are pockets in hostile territory. Most of them, for a rather large block. Only 2 are pockets.

quote: I am wholly unconvinced by the relationship you established between the occupation and the field intelligence. Spies can operate in unoccupied territory.

Not spies, reconnaissance - these aren't agents, but field gathering troops and devices.

quote: This is not what I meant. The fight against the terrorists will be done by Israel. However, the IDF will have no "police" job left in the area. Israel will use its spies and its airpower in Gaza, but there will be no jobs that require Israeli grunts anymore. Unless you believe that an actual war will start from Gaza.

Israel has no police job now too. Man, some of you people don't know much - There are no Israeli troops in the cities, only in the settlements, the borders of Gaza strip, and maybe 2 roads.

quote: If they have help from thousands of volunteers and 'NGOs', they might be able to have a decent crack at it. Especially if they can import weapons, whilst the Palestinian can't.

a) the palestinians will be able to import weaponary- well as much as resources permit.
b) Still, no dice. They won't be able to even try and contemplate the removal of this large amount of population.

Eli:

quote: Of course, all the remaining Jews will be dead. Stable.

Again, how so? Man, you people really overestimate Hamas as any force other than the maker of suicide bombers.

	17-08-2005 13:17									#124
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how is it going over there ?

	17-08-2005 13:33									#125
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teh suck.

	17-08-2005 13:52									#126
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quote: a) the palestinians will be able to import weaponary- well as much as resources permit. b) Still, no dice. They won't be able to even try and contemplate the removal of this large amount of population.

Yeah, as if Israel is going to let the Palestinians import missiles, helicopters and tanks (paid for by the Muslim world).

	17-08-2005 13:53									#127
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@ Thinking the muslim world will actually pay for that.

	17-08-2005 14:09									#128
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quote: originally posted by Az Again, how so? Man, you people really overestimate Hamas as any force other than the maker of suicide bombers.

Sheer numbers.

	17-08-2005 14:10									#129
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quote: Sheer numbers.

That's an old-ass argument.

	17-08-2005 18:05									#130
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on the one hand, its looking rough now, one woman burned herself, amost to death. One cant help but feel some sympathy.

On the other hand, comparing being forced to go to the cities of Israel, to being deported to Auschwits, is a tad post-Zionist to me.

on the other hand, the troops are proceeding methodically, firmly, and apparently calmly. Again, my admiration to Tzahal.

	17-08-2005 18:29									#131
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Sharon

Tzahal

	17-08-2005 18:32									#132
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I'll remind you of this in a couple of months.

	17-08-2005 18:33									#133
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark on the one hand, its looking rough now, one woman burned herself, amost to death. One cant help but feel some sympathy.

I find it rather sad, for her personally, but also that now some Israelis start to think too that matyrdom for a lost cause is a practicable way.

	17-08-2005 18:38									#134
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Sharon showing class:

quote: The prime minister repeatedly called on the settlers to spare the soldiers and police from harm, insults, and blame. "Blame me," he said raising his voice, "this was my decision, so blame me, curse me, hurt me." The president, sitting at Sharon's side, interrupted the prime minister, pointing out that "hurt" was a bad choice of words, and that "criticize" was more appropriate.

link

I wonder if Bush will ever be willing to use those two words.

	17-08-2005 18:43									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Az I'll remind you of this in a couple of months.

I sure hope so!

	17-08-2005 18:44									#136
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I don't get the problem with this. Just treat it as if your are throwing a Palestinian out of his house to be bulldozed. Give them a few hours notice and pull them out by force.

	17-08-2005 19:11									#137
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I don't get the problem with this. Just treat it as if your are throwing a Palestinian out of his house to be bulldozed. Give them a few hours notice and pull them out by force.

That is approximately what they're doing. They gave them 48 hours notice and are now pulling them out. But even ignoring the enormous logistical complexities that this action entails, they're trying to make this go as smoothly as possible to try to prevent violence or suicide (especially with the increased risk of Palestinian terrorists trying to attack) and to try to maintain support among the general population. Given that they so far have been successful (AFAIU, about 2/3 of gaza residents have left, and so far there's been almost no serious violence), it seems like they're making the right decisions.

	17-08-2005 19:22									#138
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A few minutes ago an Israeli citizen opened fire on Palestinian civilians in the West Bank, killing at least 2. Another 4 are seriously wounded.

	17-08-2005 21:27									#139
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quote: I don't get the problem with this. Just treat it as if your are throwing a Palestinian out of his house to be bulldozed.

We should do that more often, since it seems people think we're doing it all the time

	17-08-2005 21:30									#140
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The NY Times has had now several articles on the "plight" of the settlers and how emotional everything is.

I have no sympathy for the settlers thought, or their ideology. They never moved to Gaza to be neighbors with the Palestinians. They went there for the Greater Israel. That dream is dead, and these folks should realize it.

	17-08-2005 21:39									#141
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The NY Times has had now several articles on the "plight" of the settlers and how emotional everything is. I have no sympathy for the settlers thought, or their ideology. They never moved to Gaza to be neighbors with the Palestinians. They went there for the Greater Israel. That dream is dead, and these folks should realize it.

some of them didnt go there. Some were born there, as some of the settlements are almost 30 years old.

	17-08-2005 21:41									#142
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The NY Times has had now several articles on the "plight" of the settlers and how emotional everything is. I have no sympathy for the settlers thought, or their ideology. They never moved to Gaza to be neighbors with the Palestinians. They went there for the Greater Israel. That dream is dead, and these folks should realize it.

actually when i was in israel back in '81, I was told that settlers in the West Bank had pretty decent relations with neighboring arab villages. That changed with the first intifada.

	17-08-2005 21:43									#143
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The NY Times has had now several articles on the "plight" of the settlers and how emotional everything is. I have no sympathy for the settlers thought, or their ideology. They never moved to Gaza to be neighbors with the Palestinians. They went there for the Greater Israel. That dream is dead, and these folks should realize it.

so if and when the PA disarms Hamas, and the NYT reports how emotional it is, how bad Hamasniks feel that their own people are disarming them, will you be equally unsympathetic.

actually thats a red herring isnt it? Its most unlikely there will be seens of Hamasniks in tears, arguing with Pal soldiers, singing songs and prayers as there weapons are taken away. Rather it will be a battle. If it happens at all.

	17-08-2005 21:49									#144
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The poor settlers will only get enough compensation to live comfortably for the rest of their lives. After a lifetime of tax breaks and freebies.

My heart bleeds.

	17-08-2005 21:49									#145
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Everything changed with the first Intifada. Things got a whole lot worse for the palestinians, that's for sure.

	17-08-2005 21:52									#146
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark some of them didnt go there. Some were born there, as some of the settlements are almost 30 years old.

Too bad.

quote: so if and when the PA disarms Hamas, and the NYT reports how emotional it is, how bad Hamasniks feel that their own people are disarming them, will you be equally unsympathetic.

What's sad is that you have such a dumb view of me that you would think I would be emotional about that. NO, I would be happy to see them being disarmed. But if you need to seer me an an anti-semite or Arab lover to make yourself feel better, go right ahead. I don;t care.

quote: actually when i was in israel back in '81, I was told that settlers in the West Bank had pretty decent relations with neighboring arab villages. That changed with the first intifada.

This isn't the West Bank, now is it?

	17-08-2005 21:53									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Az Everything changed with the first Intifada. Things got a whole lot worse for the palestinians, that's for sure.

They are much closer to statehood today than in 1981. I doubt Israel would have ever accepted the principle of a Palestinian state without it. IN fact, they most certainly would have not.

	17-08-2005 21:56									#148
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quote: They are much closer to statehood today than in 1981. I doubt Israel would have ever accepted the principle of a Palestinian state without it. IN fact, they most certainly would have not.

That's very debatable. What's not debatable is the 4-fold drop in living standards ( even before this Intifada), deterioration of their society, etc. etc.

	17-08-2005 22:00									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Az That's very debatable. What's not debatable is the 4-fold drop in living standards ( even before this Intifada), deterioration of their society, etc. etc.

Is it debateable at all? Why exactly would Israelis have ever thought of granting Palestiians independence if they could continue in the fiction that Palestinians were but a docile Arab population they could control?

As for a drop in living standards, mayeb it was the measures taken by Israel to continue its control of palestinian areas during the intifadah's that did that?

	17-08-2005 22:09									#150
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quote: Is it debateable at all? Why exactly would Israelis have ever thought of granting Palestiians independence if they could continue in the fiction that Palestinians were but a docile Arab population they could control?

Because many Israelis would see the potential danger of living with a large palestinian population, docile or not. Duh. The settlements were a burden on Israel, war or not - and you didn't have to have an intifada to let Israel go. If anything, Intifada, and the attacks on Israeli civilians especially, were the ones that prolonged Israeli control of the territories.

quote: As for a drop in living standards, mayeb it was the measures taken by Israel to continue its control of palestinian areas during the intifadah's that did that?

Man, you're like the palestinian Scott Mclellan. What were those measures exactly? The major thing that hurt the palestinians the most was that it hurt the sale of palestinian goods and labor to Israel - and that wasn't done to "tighten it's evil grip" - but to protect it's territory from attacks and infiltrations.

Controlling the territories wasn't ever in Israel's best interests, and that's why Israel never annexed them - we don't want them, except for certain pockets. But leaving them back in the 70s was ****ing improbable - leave them to whom? the 70s PLO?!