08-08-2005 06:04									#1
	Are you excited about Civ4? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Perhaps this is a little off-topic but I really wanted to post it to the Alpha Centauri crowd.

Are you guys excited about Civ4 at all?

I'm not. I was for Civ3 but not not for Civ4. I havn't even bothered to look at any info on it. I think its a case of too much of the same thing.

I'm still happy playing Civ3 Conquests and feel no desire for a new Civ game at all yet.

On the other hand SMAC has so much more room for development. It's not constrained by real human history and so would be a fresher history. Every Civ game is fundamentally similar due to its foundation on history. Plus the premise and story behind SMAC is so much more interesting too.

I suppose Firaxis is making Civ4 at the moment because Civ 3 sold much better than SMAC.

I only hope they do move onto SMAC2 or SMAC remake next. Perhaps by that stage many more gamers will have grown a little tired of civ and SMAC2/remake would be more successful than its forebear.

	08-08-2005 06:41									#2
	Re: Are you excited about Civ4? Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Kaboth Perhaps this is a little off-topic but I really wanted to post it to the Alpha Centauri crowd. Are you guys excited about Civ4 at all?

Not in the sense of buying it for the base game - just not that into dusty old history I guess (never bought a Civ game to date). However there has been some talk about modding Civ4 into a version of SMAC(X). Depending upon how the initial reviews are from the Civ mod'ers, why I'm gonna look into picking up a copy of cIV just for that purpose.

quote: Originally posted by Kaboth On the other hand SMAC has so much more room for development. It's not constrained by real human history and so would be a fresher history. Every Civ game is fundamentally similar due to its foundation on history. Plus the premise and story behind SMAC is so much more interesting too.

If you think about it SMAC(X) is already primed for a sequel. Just have a Faction find the wreckage of a Progenitor ship, salvage the hyperdrive (and possibly the starmaps), and the galaxy (if not the universe) is open to the players from there! Throw in the modability that is promised via cIV, and you have not only a complex game, but one that people can then script in whatever scenarios (read worlds/ Factions/ Alien Civilizations/ solar systems) that they want! The only limits then become the imaginations of those playing the game(s)!
Much better than dusty old history, eh?

quote: Originally posted by Kaboth I suppose Firaxis is making Civ4 at the moment because Civ 3 sold much better than SMAC.

They may have made a Pirates game, but they are Morganites at heart: Money talks. :shrug:

quote: Originally posted by Kaboth I only hope they do move onto SMAC2 or SMAC remake next. Perhaps by that stage many more gamers will have grown a little tired of civ and SMAC2/remake would be more successful than its forebear.

I think a lot of people will start holding their breath after Firaxis pushes cIV out the door, anticipating whats coming next. We will see.....


D

	08-08-2005 07:07									#3
	Re: Re: Are you excited about Civ4? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Darsnan If you think about it SMAC(X) is already primed for a sequel. Just have a Faction find the wreckage of a Progenitor ship, salvage the hyperdrive (and possibly the starmaps), and the galaxy (if not the universe) is open to the players from there! Throw in the modability that is promised via cIV, and you have not only a complex game, but one that people can then script in whatever scenarios (read worlds/ Factions/ Alien Civilizations/ solar systems) that they want! The only limits then become the imaginations of those playing the game(s)! Much better than dusty old history, eh?

Yes I suppose the factions could move to many all new worlds but that would require a dramatic shift in game design. How would all the factions attack each other and the personality of being alone surrounded by rival factions would be lost too.

Then there is the question of transcendance which sort of cuts out any possibility of a direct sequel without other dramatic changes.

I think a well featured remake would sell well; the fans would love it plus I think many civ3 players missed the first SMAC so everything would be new for them.

	08-08-2005 07:23									#4
	Re: Re: Re: Are you excited about Civ4? Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Kaboth Yes I suppose the factions could move to many all new worlds but that would require a dramatic shift in game design. How would all the factions attack each other and the personality of being alone surrounded by rival factions would be lost too. Then there is the question of transcendance which sort of cuts out any possibility of a direct sequel without other dramatic changes.

My solution, as posted in this thread . Essentially factions that were losing in the Alpha Centauri system get the opportunity to start anew in a different solar system, before transcendence , thus circumnavigating that issue. Human Player then gets to choose which 7 Factions go with him (her) to this new planet.

quote: Originally posted by Kaboth I think a well featured remake would sell well; the fans would love it plus I think many civ3 players missed the first SMAC so everything would be new for them.

Depends on how well its made. Also, after how Civ3 was percieved by many fans, why it may also depend upon how Civ 4 does as well.....


D

	08-08-2005 08:18									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I would agree...a remake of SMAC would be much better than a sequel...just like civ 3 is a remake of civ 2...

	08-08-2005 08:58									#6
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I absolutely will not buy CIV 4.
When SMAC, and SMACX came out I was well pleased with my purchases. (And I am soon to purchase them again as my origional copies are getting old...I've never bought any game twice before).
Except for a few bugs, the SMAC games were almost perfect. In short, the SMAC games took you to the place that the CIV series was always headed for to start with.
When I purchased CIV 3 I was expecting a game that would be equal-to or better than the SMAC set. When I played it, It felt like I was playing CIV 1 that was released for the old SNES long years ago, with souped-up graphics to make it seem new. I'm 38, and I felt like I was playing a game made for a 10 year-old.
I played CIV 3 for 2 hours, and have never touched it since.
I felt very cheated.
GAL CIV was a little better than CIV 3, but not by much.
If there is a SMAC 2, or GAL CIV 2 I may try them, but no more CIV titles.

	08-08-2005 11:26									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I played SMAC/X and got Civ 3. I just gotta say that I'm still playing SMAC/X.

Now, if they get the diplomacy in Civ 4 like SMAC then I might be persuaded into getting it...maybe....











...maybe.

	08-08-2005 12:31									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Some of the screenshots of civ4 and especially a movie showing the actual play turned me off for the moment. I find some concepts already announced as interesting, but the RTS look of the game is a wrong turn in my oppinion. Graphics is important, but good 2D will be always better than nowadays 3D. Still.

And Earth having shape of a Footbal ball? like an egg. I know how difficult it is to divide a spherical surface into ordered and the same shaped tiles, but rugby ball planets are not for me. Any spherical map should be spherical for the purpose of establishing on the south and north poles (and exactly there) some activity. I bought original civ3, PTW and recently Conquests. The most interesting though in it is that I could make some mod of it into a galactic conquest game. After some tile of arranging planets from game graphics, I came to conclusion, that it is much better if I write my own game in this time. I played civ2 a lot. civ2 test of time also. I still remember civ1. However, I am very much afraid of what will come out of civ4. I will certainly wait till I read numerous oppinions before I try the game.

	08-08-2005 12:35									#9
	Increase Your PM Length

yes

	08-08-2005 13:54									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by frostking When I purchased CIV 3 I was expecting a game that would be equal-to or better than the SMAC set. When I played it, It felt like I was playing CIV 1 that was released for the old SNES long years ago, with souped-up graphics to make it seem new. I'm 38, and I felt like I was playing a game made for a 10 year-old. I played CIV 3 for 2 hours, and have never touched it since. I felt very cheated.

I largely agree. I played it for a week and haven't touched it since. The graphics were an embarassment. Cabbage patch leaders and walking cavemen? Please! And the gameplay was the most linear to date. If Civ 4 gets great reviews from people whose opinions I trust, I'll perhaps give it a try when it hits the bargain bin.

	09-08-2005 06:13									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I hated the initial release of Civ3 because some of the traits and unique units were just really unbalanced. Conquests fixed these problems so I came to like Civ3 after that.

I felt Civ3 had some good things like national support which I'd wanted for so long. I hated the local support system in civ2. It wasn't so bad in SMAC because you could at least make clean units and rehome units (but thats rather fiddly).

But I was very disappointed in how Civ3 was in some ways large steps back. There were no custom units or all of the subtle complexities of SMAC.

But most frightening was the total lack of immersion in the game. No Wonder Movies, what were they thinking? Saving money I suspect. Diplomacy was horrid also I just couldn't identify with the leaders.

Civ3 is more balanced than SMAC but it just isn't as fun.

	09-08-2005 06:38									#12
	Got spare money?

I'm nervous. We're definitely in a fool me once (civ 3) shame on you, fool me twice (civ 4?) shame on me situation.
I actually liked some of the screen images that I saw, until I noticed the poles. It appears that the poles are still map borders, and that missile warfare over the poles isn't possible.

I tried to give Civ3 every opportunity, rushed to buy it as soon as it was out, played it many a time, and in more games than not, I was hamstrung by the lack of coal, or oil. As discussion on the Civ4 forum indicates, anything that is outside the control of the player is a bad thing.
I'll be watching the Civ4 buzz carefully, and more importantly watch the SMAC modding community to see whether a SMAC mod is possible, even desirable. Perhaps after I finish my degree (and only have the job to deal with) I may be able to spend some time coding (I know some python, and I have extensive RDBMS programming experience).

	09-08-2005 06:44									#13
	Inflate your Upload Space

Perhaps the topology of the map is moddable.

	10-08-2005 00:46									#14
	Remove this text

Liked Civ 1 and 2 but I never got into 3. I still love Smax so I think I might take a pass on 4. Or perhaps try it once its a bargain

	10-08-2005 02:56									#15
	Remove this text

quote: Much better than dusty old history, eh?

history rocks but so does sci fi. i guess im just a gifted individual for liking them both[/arrogance]

on the topic,i will defintly be playing cIV but i wont be buying it intiul i see they are supporting it and its a decent game anyhow(or at least modable to be a good game). i always get the 'full sized demos' before buying any game.

	10-08-2005 04:01									#16
	Put an end to popups!

I do not recall any demo for civ3. Did they do one?

	10-08-2005 04:41									#17
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I believe it was a euphemism... the '' quotes
*nudge* *nudge*
If you know what I mean.

	10-08-2005 10:19									#18
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I never really got into civ3, even though I bought both expansions and really really tried to finish a game. Most of the time I quit after the ancient era out of shear bordom. I've just restared playing SMAC (never got my hands on the expansion) and am actually enjoying myself. So I don't know if I will buy civ4. I will probably wait, see what the consensus is and if bad just put off buying it until it has gone down in price or until all the expansions have been finished.

	10-08-2005 16:08									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Think I'll give it a try, and will be glad to have done so if a SMAC mod sees the light.

	15-08-2005 21:50									#20
	Inflate your Upload Space

OMIGOSH HAY GUYZ DIS IS SO KEWL!!!!111

This page...
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/info/

And CTRL-F for these words...
Customization Flexibility

And the bit that interests me...
AI Software Developer’s Kit (or SDK): For even more advanced modders, Firaxis is offering the entire AI and Game Code of the game. Here, players can change literally everything about the game they want. They can even create and write their own game types to pretty much building their own game, loosely based on Civilization. Literally everything can be changed. It has been said that it is very, vary rare for such an amazing modding level to be released for a strategy game. The AI SDK will be available shortly after the game ships.

	15-08-2005 21:57									#21
	Tired of ads?

WOW--

I don't have any modding skills but I would be thriled to see what arises from this. I already see folks like Darsnan doing amazing things within the many limits of Smax-- I can't imagine what the modders will come up with if they have carte blanche

	15-08-2005 22:19									#22
	Suffering from ads?

Oooh.... shiny....

	15-08-2005 23:34									#23
	Increase Your PM Length

There is also plenty of material of interest and of concern in the rest of that page.

I don't like the sound of maintainance increasing with distance from HQ.

The Psych/Luxuries slider being changed into Culture is a stroke of genius however.

	15-08-2005 23:44									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Good work Senethro!
I extracted everything of modding interest from the http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/info/#Notes:
Section notes are of particular interest to SMAC community.

People do not lie when they tell you some like to customize the game just as much, or even more so than to actually play it. What's new here?

• 
  

  >"Customization Flexibility" -- Section Notes: If you want to learn how to mod
  Civ4 even before it is released, through Python, check out Gingerbread Man's lessons, and tutorial on how to use the Python programming language. Click here to go to his thread and here to enter his tutorial site . If you are interested in XML, click on the XML Tutorial for more information, on XML's official site.
  

• 
  

  Contact Information & Feedback: If you have any suggestions, know of more information that could be added here, or you see that some of the current information is inaccurate or needs editing... or you simply need help, please let me know either through the Article's Private Message (if you are registeredat the forums), or E-mail . I will make sure to make additions/changes as soon as possible when need be, and proper credit will be given.

	16-08-2005 00:43									#25
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Don't tell me you guys didn't know about the presumed moddability of civ IV yet?

	16-08-2005 00:58									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

It's good to see something more concrete than "it's modifiable". An SDK is very appealing.

	16-08-2005 01:31									#27
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by GeoModder Don't tell me you guys didn't know about the presumed moddability of civ IV yet?

It was very foolish of you even to assume that.

As Chaos Theory has stated, this is a good and concrete overview of all information regarding cIV, and what is more important for SMAC community, its moddability.

Everyone has heard that almost anything is possible to modify in cIV, but this is a nice summary of what will be possible to actually do, and gives details of modding tools that will be available with the game.

	16-08-2005 08:40									#28
	Increase Your PM Length

No I will not be buying Civ4, until all the reviews are out. Civ3 was an unmitigated disaster as far as I am concerned almost as unplayable as MOO3 (ok, not quite that bad)

	16-08-2005 08:57									#29
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

No, I'm not excited about Civ4. I'm reserved in my feelings about it, and refuse to get any hopes up since Civ3 sucked like a micrometeorite puncture on the international space station.

	16-08-2005 15:19									#30
	Get a bigger avatar today!

One of the most interesting aspects of cIV is that the scale will be totally flexible. Dale (awesome civ3 terrain modder) has gotten confirmation from Firaxians that a modder can play with the scale of the objects in whatever manner they wish.

Meaning, you can get units that are dwarfed by their terrain. So, zoom in on your phalanx, and they will be much smaller than the forest tile in which they are placed.

Combine this scaling factor with the ability to set camera and perspective controls (also confirmed via Dale), and you can pretty much remake the visual aspect entirely.

Here is a mental image for you... World of Warcraft type perspectives in cIV.

Now, if we can combine the sorts of mods Dale will be doing with some SMACish elements... well, I, for one, will need to find another job as I will quickly exhause my sick days bank...