12-08-2005 14:43									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Darkstar Boris, the pyramids would be a challenge even for us to build, using our practised construction technology. So stop trying to talk down the pyramids.

I doubt the Pharoahs had to consider: environmental impact studies, planning fees, public consultation, trade union agreements, overtime, health and safety assessments, building regulations, sick pay, et cetera...

	12-08-2005 16:12									#32
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I feel that there should be a great shrine to a true wonder of the modern age

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	12-08-2005 18:22									#33
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom I doubt the Pharoahs had to consider: environmental impact studies, planning fees, public consultation, trade union agreements, overtime, health and safety assessments, building regulations, sick pay, et cetera...

No, but the clerics had to be apeased, the troops paid, the workers fed and housed... Failing one of those could mean a quick one-way to the (unfinished) pyramid.

	12-08-2005 18:26									#34
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder No, but the clerics had to be apeased, the troops paid, the workers fed and housed... Failing one of those could mean a quick one-way to the (unfinished) pyramid.

hehe well said

it certainly is interesting how the titles of issues change, yet the results can lead to a similar set of paths

	13-08-2005 01:10									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov In terms of design and construction know-how, not at all.

Well, wait. There's the celebrated "bent" pyramid. The Egyptians were building it when another pyramid collapsed. Oops, said they, better not build them with such a steep slope. So the "bent" pyramid looks a little like home plate.

	13-08-2005 01:14									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Darkstar Boris, the pyramids would be a challenge even for us to build, using our practised construction technology. So stop trying to talk down the pyramids.

Only in the sense of marshalling the resources for them and manpower. Otherwise, nothing in their design required more than basic math. Nothing in their construction required more than thousands upon thousands of laborers and some artisans.

	13-08-2005 01:16									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler Well, wait. There's the celebrated "bent" pyramid. The Egyptians were building it when another pyramid collapsed. Oops, said they, better not build them with such a steep slope. So the "bent" pyramid looks a little like home plate.

That just goes to show that it took some practice for them to get it just right. Indeed, we have many precursor pyramids that have substantial construction flaws in them prior to Kuhfu's pyramid. Their techniques were tempered by prior experiences that weren't so successful.

	13-08-2005 01:17									#38
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labourers... bet they did not get union rates

	13-08-2005 13:10									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Only in the sense of marshalling the resources for them and manpower. Otherwise, nothing in their design required more than basic math. Nothing in their construction required more than thousands upon thousands of laborers and some artisans.

this may already be known. but how did they lift one stone on top of the other?

	13-08-2005 14:03									#40
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder No, but the clerics had to be apeased, the troops paid, the workers fed and housed... Failing one of those could mean a quick one-way to the (unfinished) pyramid.

The Pharoah was a god-king- why exactly would he be appeasing the clerics, and what was their controlling role meant to be in constructing the Pyramids ?

Do you know how the workers were paid ?

I do.


Bread and grain. Bread was a staple of the Egyptian diet. It's not like Pharoah was having to call on his off-shore bank accounts in Cyprus.

When due to corruption workers were slow in getting their bread and grain, they did stage a go slow and a sit-in, but the Pharoah did remedy the situation when news reached him.

It's still many levels of bureaucracy and legislation removed from what would happen in a modern day equivalent situation.

	13-08-2005 18:59									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Dis this may already be known. but how did they lift one stone on top of the other?

Ramps and levers. Again, basic technology.

	15-08-2005 02:31									#42
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom The Pharoah was a god-king- why exactly would he be appeasing the clerics, and what was their controlling role meant to be in constructing the Pyramids ? Do you know how the workers were paid ? I do. Bread and grain. Bread was a staple of the Egyptian diet. It's not like Pharoah was having to call on his off-shore bank accounts in Cyprus. When due to corruption workers were slow in getting their bread and grain, they did stage a go slow and a sit-in, but the Pharoah did remedy the situation when news reached him. It's still many levels of bureaucracy and legislation removed from what would happen in a modern day equivalent situation.

There's plenty of evidence that certain Pharaoh's went against the mainstream religion of the day, and the priests (merely human as they were ) for sure went against this.

Regarding the workers, with what else would they get paid? It's not like the kingdom was rich enough to be able to pay them with for instance gold, nor was their an inclination to do so since the Pharaoh was God on Earth after all.

Nevertheless, hungry people will riot, neglected troops will find other marshalls and angry priests will plot, whatever status the supreme rules has.

	15-08-2005 14:28									#43
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quote: Originally posted by GeoModder Nevertheless, hungry people will riot, neglected troops will find other marshalls and angry priests will plot, whatever status the supreme rules has.

Except for the hungry people (presumably representing the labourers working on the construction of the Pyramids) the rest has little to do with pyramid construction.

As far as I'm aware, they didn't riot when they went on strike, they staged a sit-in at a temple. Presumably preferable to death.

I'm aware of alleged plots by the priesthood against Akhenaten, but again, that wasn't to do with the day-to-day business of building pyramids, but with an unorthodox pharoah introducing his own religion.

	15-08-2005 20:57									#44
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"Riot" being meant in the broadest context possible.

A riot nowadays means violent behaviour, but I presume that a sit-in at the local temple wouldn't be looked upon kindly in ancient Egypt, and sure not the same way as todays' politicians look on it.

	17-08-2005 03:06									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Dis those aren't civ3 wonders but on second thought, maybe I should visit Egypt.

Cairo is probably the greatest city in the world when it comes to Muslim architecture (mosques, to be exact). There are other places with greater and nicer buildings, but nowhere there are so many worthwhile ones, imho

Here, I've made a selection for You.

	17-08-2005 15:59									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Ramps and levers. Again, basic technology.

This is the theory you read in popular books and which sounds to be logical.

Yet, ramps and levers do work at the lower levels of a pyramid, but no longer after having reached a certain height.
Cheops' pyramid is something around 150 mtr in height, which makes for quite a number of levels. Let's assume any of those stones comes with a height of 2 mtrs (they are less, afaik), then you have to have 75 levels.
For the first 10 levels, everything may be "easy" since you just have to move some 1000 tons of earth and to build a ramp, as Boris said.

But, what do you do when having reached a height of 80 mtr? Have you ever calculated how much earth you would use for any ramp to be both: not too steep to be able to push those stone (weight ~ 1000 kg each) upwards AND strong enough to hold the weight of the stones, the men and of its own weight?

Ramps may have been used, but not for the complete pyramid. In fact, they only could be used for a mere 30%. Anything else had to be done by other means, about nowadays we know almost nothing.

Levers and cranes only work, if you have a solid base for them. But where is that base to be found when you are at a height of 80mtrs? And when on that same base other workers are pushing other stones around?

This problem typically is called "the problem of the last stone".
For any first stone up to the one being half of the total you may find an easy solution. For stones (half +1) up to the final stone, those solutions typically don't work anymore.

And finally: how would they have lifted / manouvred /whatever the last 100 stones to a height of 150 mtrs?

The pyramids most probably are the most impressive building ever done by man and we know almost nothing about how they were done.

	18-08-2005 01:32									#47
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"done by man"

Aliens built the pyramids.