08-08-2005 11:57									#1
	Wonders that aren't wonderful? Increase the size of your Attachments

Some wonders should flake out, such as a space shuttle wonder. When the things were being built they were heralded as wonders that would take us on a great leap into space. They weren't, but what if they were? How do you know something is going to be a wonder while you're building it? Some wonders should flake out. You build the Pyramids and you get a pile of rocks with a dead guy inside. Duds...having them enables the failures of civilizations to be tried again because they might work out this time around.

What do you think?

Also, besides the space shuttle, what wonder duds might be used?

What are those stone age rocks in Ireland called again? That could be one.

	08-08-2005 12:21									#2
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I believe Stonehenge is what you're thinking of there

I'd bet that a lot of people here will be dead set against "flaky" wonders. Some people (myself included) dislike the thought of things that are out of the player's control. Starting a wonder and having someone beat you to it is one thing, but building it for dozens of turns and having it not do anything at all? Not much fun in my opinion

	08-08-2005 12:36									#3
	Got spare money?

that's when you smash the game into itty bitty pieces.

anyways, that's what time limits on wonders are for. Some wonders are just better than others...

	08-08-2005 13:59									#4
	Re: Wonders that aren't wonderful? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Lancer What are those stone age rocks in Ireland called again? That could be one.

Stonehenge is in Wiltshire, England.


Newgrange is perhaps the most famous Neolithic Irish site.

quote: The three main prehistoric sites of the Brú na Bóinne Complex, Newgrange, Knowth and Dowth, are situated on the north bank of the River Boyne 50 km north of Dublin. This is Europe's largest and most important concentration of prehistoric megalithic art. The monuments there had social, economic, religious and funerary functions.

http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/659

http://www.knowth.com/winter-solstice_2004.htm

Photograph taken inside Newgrange on 21st December, the actual morning of the winter solstice mid-point in 2004:

	08-08-2005 15:07									#5
	Put an end to popups!

what so called modern man made wonder would you like to see?

nothing realy grabs my attention to mention

	08-08-2005 15:08									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I think it might be wise for them to bring back the "Wonder experation". Basicaly a Wonder is destroyed/vanishes once you reach a partiuclar tecnology/age of the world/other wonder.

This would help give us greater historical accuracy and reduce snowballing as the player cant hoard every wonder on earth.

Duds could come in the form of a Wonder expiring earlier then normal. Anything more severe then that is lible to result in the smashing into a million pieces problem noted earlier. It would also need to be a rare event perhaps linked too how many wonders you control so its more likly to hit the guy who has the most (Think of it along the lines of "your people are no longer impressed by the INSERT WONDER due to the fact you have so many more wonderfull wonders).

	08-08-2005 15:23									#7
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Platypus Rex what so called modern man made wonder would you like to see? nothing realy grabs my attention to mention

Modern-ish- something like the Great Exhibition, or the Expo, or the International Exhibition- big trade fairs and international/national celebrations of art and industry, that also left us great buildings in San Francisco, and Melbourne, London and Kingston and Paris, and so on.

http://whc.unesco.org/pg.cfm?cid=31&id_site=1131

World's fairs and expositions:

http://www.earthstation9.com/index.html?1880_189.htm

	08-08-2005 22:25									#8
	Re: Re: Wonders that aren't wonderful? Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Stonehenge is in Wiltshire, England.

only cuz that rat bastard merlin stole it. . .

	08-08-2005 23:38									#9
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Impaler[WrG] Duds could come in the form of a Wonder expiring earlier then normal. Anything more severe then that is lible to result in the smashing into a million pieces problem noted earlier. It would also need to be a rare event perhaps linked too how many wonders you control so its more likly to hit the guy who has the most (Think of it along the lines of "your people are no longer impressed by the INSERT WONDER due to the fact you have so many more wonderfull wonders).

I like this idea

	09-08-2005 03:57									#10
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Ick. No.

	09-08-2005 04:26									#11
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

If given the opption

I would try a game or two

	09-08-2005 07:52									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Impaler[WrG] I think it might be wise for them to bring back the "Wonder experation". Basicaly a Wonder is destroyed/vanishes once you reach a partiuclar tecnology/age of the world/other wonder. This would help give us greater historical accuracy and reduce snowballing as the player cant hoard every wonder on earth. Duds could come in the form of a Wonder expiring earlier then normal. Anything more severe then that is lible to result in the smashing into a million pieces problem noted earlier. It would also need to be a rare event perhaps linked too how many wonders you control so its more likly to hit the guy who has the most (Think of it along the lines of "your people are no longer impressed by the INSERT WONDER due to the fact you have so many more wonderfull wonders).

Yes, this is better.

molly, interesting info

	09-08-2005 11:55									#13
	Increase Your PM Length

http://www.knight-lomas.com/uriel.html

Uriel's Machine

A detailed investigation and fact finding about Neo/megolithic sites

Highly recommended

	09-08-2005 12:59									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Ick. No.

It's a great idea. How impressed can your people really be when you have so many great wonders? Some of the older ones should lose importance.

	09-08-2005 14:03									#15
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Dis It's a great idea. How impressed can your people really be when you have so many great wonders? Some of the older ones should lose importance.

The way that Stonehenge and the Pyramids haven't ? Or the Taj Mahal or Hindu temples in India ?

Their 'initial' or 'primary' importance for the time they were built in is replaced in many cases by an association with say, a renewed sense of nationalism, or income generation from tourism.

So that even today although Egypt is a mainly Muslim country, it still promotes its Egyptian pre-Islamic history with the Pyramids, and Iran does the same thing with its pre-Islamic golden age buildings from the Achaemenid and Sassanid dynasties.

	09-08-2005 14:16									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by molly bloom The way that Stonehenge and the Pyramids haven't ? Or the Taj Mahal or Hindu temples in India ? Their 'initial' or 'primary' importance for the time they were built in is replaced in many cases by an association with say, a renewed sense of nationalism, or income generation from tourism. So that even today although Egypt is a mainly Muslim country, it still promotes its Egyptian pre-Islamic history with the Pyramids, and Iran does the same thing with its pre-Islamic golden age buildings from the Achaemenid and Sassanid dynasties.

Pyramids are the only wonder that Egypt has. It's their only touritst attraction. That's why it's still popular.

oh and the fact no one knows for sure how they were built with existing technology at the time.

	09-08-2005 14:22									#17
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Dis Pyramids are the only wonder that Egypt has. It's their only touritst attraction. That's why it's still popular. oh and the fact no one knows for sure how they were built with existing technology at the time.

Errr.... try Luxor, Abu Simbel, al Azhar, Fatimid, Ayyubid and Mameluke monuments, the Sphinx, the tomb of Hatshepsut, the Valley of the Kings....

	09-08-2005 14:52									#18
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

those aren't civ3 wonders

but on second thought, maybe I should visit Egypt.

	09-08-2005 16:31									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I wonder what the status of some of the wonders like The Colossus or The Hanging Gardens would have been had they survived. I don't think they would have faded away like that. More silly ideas...

	09-08-2005 19:43									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Dis oh and the fact no one knows for sure how they were built with existing technology at the time.

Not true. There's no great "wonder" at how the pyramids were built with "existing technology," as nothing about their construction defies what we know of their available building techniques. There's certainly nothing mystical about it.

	09-08-2005 19:46									#21
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Dis It's a great idea. How impressed can your people really be when you have so many great wonders? Some of the older ones should lose importance.

Yeah, when I look at Mt. Hood, I just can't get a sense of awe because I know Mt. Rainier is also out there, or Mt. McKinley...

I can't think of any logical reason for "wonder fatigue" in a civilization. If anything, the sheer abundance of wonders would be a source for incredible nationalist pride. But wonders are impressive on their own merits, and it's silly to think the power of one would be diminished by the existence of others.

	09-08-2005 20:52									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Not true. There's no great "wonder" at how the pyramids were built with "existing technology," as nothing about their construction defies what we know of their available building techniques. There's certainly nothing mystical about it.

He didn't say that it couldn't be done with existing technology. He only said that we don't know specifics about the process, which is true. There are a lot of gaps in what we know about them


I think wonders that lose importance is getting unnecessarily complex. I believe Civ should be as realistic as possible, but only to the point where it allows for fun gameplay. Civ is a game of abstractions. Excessive micromanagement is not much fun for your average player... I don't think such a small thing is worth the effort

	09-08-2005 21:12									#23
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

The US Space Shuttle was a wonder in its day. It is not the Shuttle that has failed mankind. It is the bureaucracy in Washington and NASA that has failed us - circling the earth for almost 25 years. We should be on the third version of a reusable vehicle by now and standing on Mars. The shuttle cannot be blamed for the fizzle that the US Space program has become.

Now that Russian Shuttle was a fizzle.

In game, I think that having another civ beat you to a wonder and loosing all that time and money is a big enough fizzle.

See Russian Shuttle.

And yes civilizations do know that the are building a wonder of the world when they build it. Those who built the pyramids saw it. Those who built great bridges and dams and sky scrapers knew these to be wonders. The Apollo mission, the A-Bomb, the future cure for cancer are all wonders that have or will change the world and yes those who have worked on them knew it. So, in a game that spans thousands of years, it is fair to assume that when your civ completes a wonder it will work.

As far as the wonder expiring, or the effects changing. I think Civ has handled that in the past. I am sure that Civ4 will have a fair way to deal with this.

	09-08-2005 21:40									#24
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Sabre2th He didn't say that it couldn't be done with existing technology.

That's certainly his implication. Why else say "with existing technology at the time," unless he's asserting that there is some bafflement at the Egyptians being able to build them with their known technology?

The Pyramids are huge and grand, but not miraculous. If the accounts of the Hanging Gardens are to be believed, they required far more engineering meddle to create than Cheops did.

	10-08-2005 03:24									#25
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov That's certainly his implication. Why else say "with existing technology at the time," unless he's asserting that there is some bafflement at the Egyptians being able to build them with their known technology? The Pyramids are huge and grand, but not miraculous. If the accounts of the Hanging Gardens are to be believed, they required far more engineering meddle to create than Cheops did.

perhaps I did not use the right combination of words. I was referring to what saber2th was saying.

I'm not one of these fanatics who believe space aliens constructed them. I'm sure lots and lots of slaves were used (and died), but exactly how did they get such large stone bricks up there? Or even accross large expanses of desert. I watched a program that suggested they rolled them on logs.

	10-08-2005 04:26									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

http://www.catchpenny.org/howbuilt.html

The only question I can see that isn't fully answered is how much were the stones simply hauled up earthen ramps vs. being placed by lever machines (which this highly skeptical author acknowledges were quite possible). That's a pretty inconsequential detail, as far as I'm concerned.

Of, course the major answer to "how" is that, when you have hundreds of thousands of laborers at your disposal and plenty of free time, enormous feats aren't so difficult.

	10-08-2005 12:34									#27
	Put an end to popups!

you think the pyramids weren't that difficult?

Sure you have the manpower, but it's not easy to coordinate that manpower. Especially when they are slave labour. it's not like they take pride in their work. It's not like in the U.S. where you have union guys who each have a certain task to do. And they do that task well (I'm serious here- union guys at least in my city are hard workers- when it comes to their actual job- they will never do anyone else's job)

	10-08-2005 14:13									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by skrobism And yes civilizations do know that the are building a wonder of the world when they build it. Those who built the pyramids saw it.

Unlikely for earlier civilizations, since the list of wonders of the ancient world was a list formulated over time by Herodotus and Antipater of Sidon, Callimachus of Cyrene amongst others- which is why it has a Mediterranean, Middle Eastern Graeco-Roman feel to it- no Persian/Achaemenid wonders, no Stonehenge, nothing from India or China.

The list was revised in Mediaeval times, when it hardened to being the Seven Wonders of the Pharos of Alexandria, the Pyramids, the Mausoleum at Halicarnassus, the statue of Zeus, the temple of Artemis at Ephesus, and the Hanging Gardens of Babylon and the Colossus of Rhodes.

Khufu's pyramids had been preceded by earlier pyramids too.

	10-08-2005 20:08									#29
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Dis you think the pyramids weren't that difficult?

In terms of design and construction know-how, not at all.

quote: Sure you have the manpower, but it's not easy to coordinate that manpower. Especially when they are slave labour.

Well, that's a very debatable issue right there. There is a lot of evidence that it wasn't predominantly slave labor at all, but rather, the Egyptian citizens being corralled into public works during the flood season (since they had nothing else to do, as the fields were flooded).

	12-08-2005 03:11									#30
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Boris, the pyramids would be a challenge even for us to build, using our practised construction technology. So stop trying to talk down the pyramids.

Of course, they were mostly make busy work for the workers... who were not slave labour. At least, to the best of our current knowledge.