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Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:37
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quote:
The Iranian mullahs, OTOH, came to power 26 years ago, and not only have not promised to give up their undemocratic power, but they exclude from their "democratic elections" any candidates who call for them to do so. |
You realize that Musharraf disqualified from the "democratic" parliamentary elections the leaders of the two major (secular) parties?
quote:
Of course Perv only came to power 8 years ago, 8 years of turbulence in Pakistan. He says he intends to restore full democracy. |
Yes, of course. Just like Mubarak, right?
Musharraf was supposed to step down as head of the army, what, a year ago? Last time I checked he's still a General.
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Do you not believe that Israel would be ready to talk about this with Iran, anywhere, anytime? |
I'd heard that there would be no Israeli discussions about disarmament until there's a comprehensive peace with its neighbors. And you're not going to see that until there's a final settlement with the Pals (as Abdullah Saud suggested - involving a total withdrawal from the West Bank and Gaza - rejected of course). I guess it always comes down to that in the ME.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:37
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Originally posted by Ramo
"You realize that Musharraf disqualified from the "democratic" parliamentary elections the leaders of the two major (secular) parties?"
For corruption. Their parties still participated. Contrast with Iran.
"
Yes, of course. Just like Mubarak, right?
Musharraf was supposed to step down as head of the army, what, a year ago? Last time I checked he's still a General."
The contrast is with Iran, where they dont even promise change. You will note this thread is about Iranian nukes, which is why Paki was mentioned. Egypt doesnt have nukes.
"I'd heard that there would be no Israeli discussions about disarmament until there's a comprehensive peace with its neighbors. "
you heard wrong. Israel says the discussions can start as part of the road map process. Of course they are unlikely to agree to disarm until ALL states in the region commit to a treaty with them to do that, and its hard for that to happen when some major states in the region dont recognize them. at least one state, Iran, calls for their destruction. That would certainly get in the way of negotiations toward mutual disarmament.
" And you're not going to see that until there's a final settlement with the Pals (as Abdullah Saud suggested - involving a total withdrawal from the West Bank and Gaza - rejected of course)."
If the Saudis want to advance their view of the final boundary, they should join the negotiations. Israel has its views, other folks have theirs - thats why negotiations are necessary.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:37
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From Memri:
Special Dispatch Series - No. 897
April 22, 2005 No.897
Ayatollah Nouri-Hamedani: ‘Fight the Jews and Vanquish Them so as to Hasten the Coming of the Hidden Imam’
The official Iranian news agency Fars, which is close to the conservative circles in Iran, recently published a statement by Ayatollah Hossein Nouri-Hamedani, one of the Iranian regime's leading religious authorities, in which he advocates fighting the Jews in order to prepare the ground and to hasten the advent of the Hidden Imam, the Messiah according to Shiite belief.
It should be noted that the Fars news agency took the report off its web site several hours after its publication, and other Iranian media outlets close to the conservatives refrained from citing it.
The following is the text of Ayatollah Nouri-Hamedani's censored statements, which appeared in identical language on two internet sites: Peykeiran, a site close to the anti-regime communist left; and Asylum-Norway, an internet site belonging to an organization that supports Iranian refugees in Norway: [1]
Prior to the Advent of the Hidden Imam, Arrogance and Colonialism Rule the World
"Fars news agency: Ayatollah Nouri-Hamedani, discussing [Shi'ite] religious texts, said: 'One should fight the Jews and vanquish them so that the conditions for the advent of the Hidden Imam be met.' According to the Fars news agency's report, Ayatollah Nouri-Hamedani met with members of the Mahdaviyat Studies Institute. [2] He praised the institute's work and demanded that the religious seminaries in Qom also do more to research religious texts and hadith concerning the Hidden Imam...
"Nouri-Hamedani said that the texts concerning the end of days are rife with allusions and hidden meanings. He asked the researchers to devote their efforts to elucidating these texts. He noted: 'In the texts it is told that the Hidden Imam will remove the yoke of humiliation from mankind's neck. Therefore it is clear that prior to the advent of the Hidden Imam, Arrogance [a common epithet for Western powers, especially the U.S.A.] and colonialism rule the world.'
The Jews Have Hoarded All the Wealth in One Place, and All the World are Their Slaves
"According to this religious authority, 'at present the Jews' policies threaten us. One should explain in the clearest terms the danger the Jews pose to the [Iranian] people and to the Muslims. Ever since Islam's appearance, the group that expressed fierce opposition to Islam – and still acts in this fashion – were the Jews. They were involved in the Khaybar, Uhud, and Ahzab wars.' [3] He added: 'Already from the beginning the Jews wanted to hoard the world's goods in [their] greed and voracity. They always worked in important professions and now they have hoarded all of the wealth in one place. And all of the world, especially America and Europe, are their slaves.'"
Crazy Ideas Such as Secularism, Liberalism, and Humanism are Part of Our Enemies' Plans to Sow Disunity
In another statement from last year, Ayatollah Nouri-Hamedani, on the occasion of his visit to the cities of Khoramshahr and Shalamche, said: "World Arrogance [i.e., the U.S. and the Western powers] is creating a trinity of evil: heresy, divisiveness, and Zionism, in order to weaken the [Iranian] people's spirit and to create division and disagreement with respect to our regime. [Therefore] all of the senior officials and the public must be on their guard more than ever…
"The spreading of prostitution and evil things, the creation of a mentality of inferiority, and the propagation of crazy ideas such as secularism, liberalism, and humanism are [all] part of our enemies' plans to sow disunity in [our] society...
"The revelation of the culture of Jihad and martyrdom in the country [Iran] struck world Arrogance [i.e., the U.S. and the Western powers] with dread… The existence of such a spirit among our youth led to world Arrogance's not daring to infringe on our borders... History shows that every people that lost the culture of Jihad and martyrdom were brought down." [4]
And some folks think its no big deal if this regime gets nukes.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:37
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Khamenei Message to Hajj Pilgrims: The Zionist Octopus and U.S. Imperialism Harbor Plans for the Entire Islamic World
"… At present, the Islamic world is faced with an all-out siege, both on the economic and the technological fronts, as well as with a propaganda offensive, and most recently with military occupation. The occupation of Palestine and the holy city of Quds [Jerusalem] have culminated in the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan.
"The Zionist octopus – along with the vicious and despicable U. S. imperialism – now harbors plans for the entire region of the Middle East, as well as North Africa and the entire Islamic world. They have created the general awakening, which has breathed new life into the Islamic nation [ Ummah ], the target of their vengeance and spite.
"The U.S. and the Western imperialists have finally concluded that Muslim countries and nations, especially those of the Middle East, form the core of this awakening and resistance to their plans for global domination. They foresee that if they fail to control or suppress this Islamic awakening in the next few years with political and economic measures, through propaganda, and as a last resort through military aggression, all their plans for absolute global hegemony and control of the most vital oil and gas resources, which constitute the sole powerhouse of their industrial machinery and [the sole] cause of their material edge over the rest of humanity, will come to nothing.
"If that happens, the big Western and Zionist capitalists, who are the real backstage players in all imperialist governments, will fall from the height of their power and their domination over the nations.
"Imperialist arrogance has deployed all its capabilities to this end. It has launched this fateful war, using political pressure on one front, threats of economic sanctions on another, and employing propaganda tactics in one place and bombs, missiles, tanks, and troops in other places, such as Iraq and Afghanistan, just as it did before in Palestine and Quds.
"The most important tool of these predatory savages is the deceptive mask of hypocrisy that they wear. They equip and dispatch their assassination squads to murder innocent people and talk of waging war on terrorism. They openly support the bloodthirsty terrorist regime that has usurped Palestine, and label as terrorists the defenders of Palestine, who strive with their backs to the wall.
"They manufacture, supply, and use nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons of mass destruction. They have perpetrated such horrors as Hiroshima and Halabja, and on the Iranian warfront during the imposed war, while they profess to be against the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction.
"They themselves are behind the dirty drug-trade mafia, but claim to be fighting the narcotics trade. They make a display of supporting science and the globalization of science, and yet obstruct the development of science and technology in the Islamic world, considering the emergence of nuclear technology for peaceful purposes in Islamic countries a moral sin.
"They talk of freedom and the rights of minorities while depriving Muslim girls of the right to education for the sin of wearing the Islamic scarf. They speak glibly about the freedom of expression and belief, while counting every expression of opinion about Zionism as a crime.
"They ban the publication of many outstanding Islamic works and forbid in the U.S. even the publication of the documents retrieved from the U.S. spy den in Tehran. They rant about human rights while setting up scores of torture centers – such as the ones at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib – or maintain a conniving silence about such incredible outrages.
"They talk about respect for all religions, while extending their support to such renegades as Salman Rushdie, who has been sentenced to capital punishment, and the BBC, which broadcasts sacrilegious statements against Islamic sanctities.
"However, as a consequence of the insolent and foolishly reckless conduct of the U.S. and British rulers, this mask of deception and hypocrisy has been fractured. With their own hands, they have stuffed the hearts of Muslim nations and youth with hatred for the arrogant imperialists. Should free elections be held today in any Muslim country, the people would definitely vote against the wishes of the U.S. and Britain."
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Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:37
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quote:
For corruption. Their parties still participated. Contrast with Iran. |
Yes, after you disqualify the leaders of the parties, certainly thier parties would do well in the elections. And in Iran, at least the Parliament was able to do something. They don't have a dictatorship. Incidentally, Musharraf's Parliamentary gov't exists only because he's in a coalition with the fundies against the secular parties.
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The contrast is with Iran, where they dont even promise change. |
What use is a promise about giving up power when it's proven that your promises about giving up power are worthless (again, see as head of army)? And Iran is at least not a dictatorship.
Going back to nukes, do you honestly believe that Khamenei is ready to start a nuclear war with Israel? Rhetoric aside, you have to absolutely insane to do that. And I don't think that characterizes him (unlike, as I hinted, Kim Jung Il). Again, there is some danger with rogue elements, but not all that different from Pakistan.
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you heard wrong. Israel says the discussions can start as part of the road map process. Of course they are unlikely to agree to disarm until ALL states in the region commit to a treaty with them to do that, and its hard for that to happen when some major states in the region dont recognize them. at least one state, Iran, calls for their destruction. That would certainly get in the way of negotiations toward mutual disarmament. |
Source? I just did some googling:
quote:
Arab states want Israel to give up its nuclear capability as part of comprehensive peace talks. Israel, however, insists that the peace process must be completed before it considers relinquishing its nuclear capability. IAEA Director-General Dr Mohamed ElBaradei suggests that the two should be pursued “together in tandem” and that all parties should pursue: |
http://www.basicint.org/nuclear/NPT/2005rc/brief11.htm
quote:
If the Saudis want to advance their view of the final boundary, they should join the negotiations. Israel has its views, other folks have theirs - thats why negotiations are necessary. |
The point was that Abdullah offered to broker a comprehensive peace if Israel abandoned the occupied territories.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:37
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Ramo
"Yes, after you disqualify the leaders of the parties, certainly thier parties would do well in the elections. "
better than iran, where the whole parties are banned.
"And in Iran, at least the Parliament was able to do something. They don't have a dictatorship. "
as far as i can tell, the Paki parliament has at least as great a role in governance as the Iranian parliament. And the Iranian govt is far harsher with dissidents than the Paki govt.
"Incidentally, Musharraf's Parliamentary gov't exists only because he's in a coalition with the fundies against the secular parties."
Against the secular parties that he considers corrupt, and which were in power when Paki started supporting the Taliban. Im sure he wishes that the pro-Musharaff party had won enough seats to govern on its own. But when you have a free election, you cant guarantee the outcome.
"What use is a promise about giving up power when it's proven that your promises about giving up power are worthless (again, see as head of army)? "
Given the situation in Pakistan, I can see why he felt a need to keep direct control of the army. A promise to give up power is better than a state where the oppressors insist on keeping it forever.
"And Iran is at least not a dictatorship."
Which you keep saying, but its not true.
"Going back to nukes, do you honestly believe that Khamenei is ready to start a nuclear war with Israel?
Rhetoric aside, you have to absolutely insane to do that. And I don't think that characterizes him (unlike, as I hinted, Kim Jung Il)."
I dont know for sure, and im not real inclined to perform the experiment to find out. People have asked what distinguishes Iran from Israel, Pakistan, and India (aside from being a signatory to the NPT) I think the rhetoric that animates the Iranian govt gives a pretty good idea of what distinguishes them. Given what the Iranian govt has said about Israel, and about the West, I dont see why we are under any obligation to allow them nukes, regardless of what mutual assured destruction theorizing you want to do. When you say things like that, you forfeit your "sovereign rights" IMHO.
France, Germany, and the UK seem to agree - not just the US. I think those 4 states should have the courage of their convictions, and do what they can to stop Iranian nukes.
If you and Ge are insulted at the unfairness of letting Pakistan and Israel keep nukes, cause you are less troubled by the words of the Iranian regime, than so be it.
"The point was that Abdullah offered to broker a comprehensive peace if Israel abandoned the occupied territories."
Whats left to broker when Israel has given up all its claims, and all its bargaining chips.
How George Bush offers to broker an Israeli withdrawl from the territories, AFTER all arab states and the Pals have agreed to a comprehensive peace with Israel. That would be just as stupid.
If youre going to exchange land for peace, the exchange has to be simultaneous, and the details have to be negotiated together.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:37
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from the Guardian:
Iran sends in troops to crush border unrest
Michael Howard
Friday August 5, 2005
The Guardian
The Iranian government has deployed large numbers of troops in cities in the northwestern region which borders Iraq in an effort to quell three weeks of civil unrest that has left up to 20 people dead and more than 300 wounded, according to reports from dissident groups.
They said as many as 100,000 state security forces (LOTM - well at least they dont follow the Rummy too few troops approach), backed up by helicopter gunships, had moved into the region to crack down on pro-Kurdish demonstrations.
The claims, from Kurdish groups in Iraq, could not be independently verified, and Iranian officials remained silent about the unrest.
The state-owned news agency IRNA said the trouble was due to "hooligan and criminal elements". (LOTM-well, OTOH, maybe they HAVE been learning from Rummy)
News agencies have reported trouble in the northern areas over the past two weeks, though the scale of the unrest has been unclear.
The protests in the Kurdish areas came after the killing of a Kurdish activist by Iranian security forces in the city of Mahabad on July 9. Since then, anti-regime demonstrations have erupted in the mainly Kurdish towns of Sanandaj, Mahabad, Sardasht, Piranshahr, Oshnavieh, Divandareh, Baneh, Sinne, Bokan and Saqiz.
In the worst violence so far, Iranian security forces are reported to have killed at least 12 Kurdish demonstrators and injured more than 70 in a clash in the city of Saqiz on Wednesday. (LOTM - hm, sounds a bit like Uzbekistan)
Witnesses said the unrest began just before noon as hundreds of protesters attacked a paramilitary outpost with sticks and stones.(LOTM - Ah responding to stones with killings perhaps some of those who are on Israels case care to comment) Government buildings, including the governor's office, were also attacked and some were ransacked.
Protesters then gathered in the main square, chanting "Down with Khamenei", the country's supreme leader. (LOTM - and only hooligans would chant that)
Witnesses said that security forces responded with live bullets, and some protesters were fired at by helicopters.
Kurdsat, an Iraqi-Kurdish satellite channel based in Sulaimaniyah, reported yesterday that police had detained as many as 1,200 people after the incident. (LOTM - I hope theyre being held in good conditions - perhaps Amnesty International should investigate)
Further unrest was feared yesterday in Bokan and Sinne, where up to 6,000 special forces soldiers were said to have gathered. Opposition leaders appealed for calm and called for the international community to put pressure on the Iranian authorities to halt the crackdown. (LOTM - what, put pressure on democratic Iran? Im not holding my breath)
In a statement, the Kurdistan Democratic party of Iran, which is based in Iraq, urged "international organisations, human-rights supporters and the international community to make efforts to stop the bloodshed of the Iranian Kurdish people by the Islamic republic regime of Iran".
"This could turn into yet another tragedy for our people," said Hussein Yazdanpanah, the general secretary of the Revolutionary Union of Kurdistan, who is in exile in the city of Irbil.
"Our people want their rights and to demonstrate and work for them peacefully. But they are being met with a brutal force."
Iranian agents provocateur were moving among the protesters, he said, "ensuring chaos and violence and thereby justifying an extreme reaction from Iranian authorities".
Iran is home to about 6 million Kurds - almost 10% of the population - who say they face discrimination and repression at the hands of the theocratic rulers in Tehran.
A UN report released last Saturday said authorities were denying basic amenities to Iran's ethnic and religious minorities and in some cases seizing land.
"Regions historically occupied by Kurds ... seem to suffer disproportionate inadequacy of services such as water and electricity and unsatisfactory reconstruction efforts," the report concluded.
But Tehran dismisses such charges and is extremely sensitive about any hint of ethnic unrest, particularly by the Kurds. Anti-government demonstrations are dealt with harshly.
Mahabad, where the activist Shwana Sayyed Qadr was killed, was the capital of the short-lived Republic of Kurdistan, established by the Kurdish leader Mustafah Barzani in 1945. It has since become a symbol for Kurdish nationalism. "
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:37
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Iran dissident Ganji still on hunger strike -paper Wed Aug 10, 9:42 AM ET
TEHRAN (Reuters) - Dissident Iranian journalist Akbar Ganji is still on hunger strike, a hospital official was quoted as saying on Wednesday, contradicting an official from the conservative judiciary who said he was eating again.
Judiciary spokesman Jamal Karimirad said on Tuesday Ganji had ended his eight-week hunger strike after calls from his family and friends, who were concerned that he could die.
But Sirus Tabesh, head of public relations at Tehran's Milad hospital, said this was incorrect.
"Ganji is not consuming any food," he told the Sharq daily newspaper. "Ganji's condition would become critical if his situation goes on as it is now."
The 46-year-old former Revolutionary Guard turned reformist was imprisoned in 2001 after writing a string of stories linking officials to the murder of political dissidents.
He began his hunger strike in June to pressure the judiciary to grant him an unconditional release. He was moved to Tehran's Milad hospital and is kept under guard. Last month his health seriously deteriorated.
Sharq newspaper also quoted Shahaboddin Sadr, the head of Iran's coroner's office, saying Ganji's health was now stable.
Ganji's plight has provoked comments of outrage and concern from the United States, the European Union and numerous human rights groups.
A relative said Ganji's family was not immediately able to confirm whether he had broken his hunger strike or not as they had been denied access to him since Aug 1.
Ganji's wife was quoted by the ISNA students news agency saying her husband receives serums whenever his condition becomes critical.
She said he was being given intravenous drips but on Friday developed a blood clot in his left arm.
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General Ludd
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Minion of the Dominion
Aug 2001
time: 05:37
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quote:
Originally posted by SlowwHand
USA used 60 years ago, and were shocked at the result. |
So shocked, they decided to build tens of thousands more.
Last edited by General Ludd on 10-08-2005 at 23:07
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Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:37
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quote:
as far as i can tell, the Paki parliament has at least as great a role in governance as the Iranian parliament.[/q]
Except Musharraf forced the Parliament into giving him emergency powers (by making the aforementioned promise to step down, and then have a subsequent election a month later - obviously neither of which came to pass).
[q]And the Iranian govt is far harsher with dissidents than the Paki govt. |
Yes, Pak has more liberal press laws than Iran, but it has more severe, i.e. repression of workers. But that's going too far off topic.
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Against the secular parties that he considers corrupt, and which were in power when Paki started supporting the Taliban. Im sure he wishes that the pro-Musharaff party had won enough seats to govern on its own. But when you have a free election, you cant guarantee the outcome. |
Parties like Hamas and Hezb are sqeaky clean compared to their secular alternatives. Would you rather have Fatah or Hamas in control of Gaza?
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Given the situation in Pakistan, I can see why he felt a need to keep direct control of the army. A promise to give up power is better than a state where the oppressors insist on keeping it forever. |
If his promises have been proven to be empty, why?
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I dont know for sure, and im not real inclined to perform the experiment to find out. People have asked what distinguishes Iran from Israel, Pakistan, and India (aside from being a signatory to the NPT) I think the rhetoric that animates the Iranian govt gives a pretty good idea of what distinguishes them. |
Musharraf isn't a rabid fundie. Of course you're not going to see comparable rhetoric. But to start a nuclear war is simply insane. Not just have a seriously ****ed up worldview, but incapable of making simple logical connections.
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If you and Ge are insulted at the unfairness of letting Pakistan and Israel keep nukes, cause you are less troubled by the words of the Iranian regime, than so be it. |
I never said anything about "unfairness." I never said I opposed policies to prevent Iran from getting nukes. What I did say is that military action would be a monumentally inept policy. To Blair's credit, I don't think he'd participate in anything of the sort. Dear Leader, OTOH...
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If youre going to exchange land for peace, the exchange has to be simultaneous, and the details have to be negotiated together. |
I wasn't aware that the deal wasn't supposed to be simultaneous. Do you have a source?
But that's a tangeant; the point was I haven't heard of this specific disarmament proposal that you were referring to.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:37
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Ramo
"I never said anything about "unfairness." I never said I opposed policies to prevent Iran from getting nukes. What I did say is that military action would be a monumentally inept policy. To Blair's credit, I don't think he'd participate in anything of the sort. Dear Leader, OTOH..."
Im sorry then. Gepap apparently felt that the policies of the EU3, and the proposals to sanction Iran were unfair. Given that the thing is going to the IAEA to discuss referall to the UNSC, I thought sanctions were what we were discussing. I can certainly see many arguements against military action, and have advocated it nowhere in this thread. I cant speak for George Bush. Michael Ledeen, the leading hardline neocon who focuses on Iran in the National Review and elsewhere, does not advocate the invasion of Iran.
"I wasn't aware that the deal wasn't supposed to be simultaneous. Do you have a source?"
I was going by your own words here.
"But that's a tangeant; the point was I haven't heard of this specific disarmament proposal that you were referring to."
I cant find a specific proposal on the table, but its my sense that the Israelis have always been open to discussing regional disarmament as part of peace talks. If that was your question, Im not sure why you referred to Abdullahs proposal. There already IS a peace process, under the road map, which is supported by the US, EU, Russia AND the UN. And OPPOSED, quite bitterly AFAICT, by Iran.
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10-08-2005 20:37
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