09-08-2005 08:06									#1
	The Bush Antinomy Support Apolyton

1) The applicability of Democracy, Justice and Human Rights is universal (e.g. Bush's rhetorical justification for the war in Iraq)

2. The applicability of Democracy, Justice and Human Rights is particular (e.g. the real implications of Camp X-Ray and the Military Tribunals)

My primary issue with Guantanamo Bay is not that it defies Universal laws of Democracy, Justice and Human Rights, but that it's defiers use these "laws" to justify their actions elsewhere.

George W. Bush either has to admit that the Bill of Rights and the Geneva Convention are of only limited applicability, or he must do everything within his power to ensure their universal applicability.

Bush, Blair and Howard must admit to the public that they believe liberal democracy and its freedoms must be abridged to ensure safety. If they truly believe in liberal democracy and its freedoms then they must admit to the public that they must allow conditions to prevail that leave society open to danger. Freedom and Security are not common bedfellows.

They must put forward their true case to us: that universal human rights and civil liberties are no longer tenable. They must stop justifying their actions in terms of these principles whilst at the same time sneaking them out the back door. The public will either approve or disapprove, but they will all respect their leader's backbone for telling the truth.

We may be seeing an end to the so-called upward momentum of freedom... just as freedom has spread so far across the globe. In the hour of it's triumph, freedom crosses it's own apex and thus begins its afternoon.

In this context the ironic may occur: just as the conservatives came to advocate the progressive and revolutionary extension of liberal economics over society... it may so end that the only ones to remain in defense of bourgeois liberty are leftists like myself!

	09-08-2005 08:29									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Not sure I get the Antimony reference. It is some kind of rare metal, right?

	09-08-2005 12:05									#3
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I was hoping for an antidote.

	09-08-2005 18:14									#4
	Increase the size of your Attachments

An antinomy is a pair of propositions that are contradictory but both can be rationally applied/accepted.

	09-08-2005 19:51									#5
	Got spare money?

my head hurts

	09-08-2005 19:53									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: my head hurts

quoted for emphasis

	09-08-2005 19:54									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Why does your head hurt?

	09-08-2005 20:01									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

3 Things

1. Democracy does not dismiss the need or notion of necessary evils.

2. No society exists independent of other societies, politics included. Especially a democracy that has at it's core a capitalistic economy that relies on international trade.

3. Freedom and Security may not make common bedfellows, but that is not a fault of Democracy. Nor does Democracy draw this conclusion as Dracon wants us to believe.

	09-08-2005 20:20									#9
	Tired of ads?

While I think I understand the idea behind the "Freedom and Security may not make common bedfellows" thing, and would agree with that to some point you also could say that freedom without security is not much freedom anyway. I mean when you get blown up in a bus or so it is the ultimate violation of your rights.....sure there is the danger that civil liberties are undermined by new anti-terror laws, but I don't think that freedom and security are mutually exclusive, as the line above seems to suggest. It is a question of the balance between both IMO.

	09-08-2005 20:49									#10
	Increase Your PM Length

Balance of Freedom and security...hmmm. Sounds like Orwell was a prophet afterall.

	09-08-2005 20:55									#11
	Get a bigger avatar today!

What's Orwellian about it? Wouldn't Orwellian be where security is all, and freedom nothing? That's no balance at all.....

Is it really that evil to say that your freedom is ultimately gone when someone decides to blow you up?

	09-08-2005 21:54									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Well, when one is blown up, the person's limbs would have freedom from being attached to the body.

	09-08-2005 22:44									#13
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

FREEDOOOM !!!

but i don't think mel gibson meant it the mrfun way.

	10-08-2005 00:55									#14
	Increase the size of your Attachments

yes, and thank god he didn't mean it that way

	10-08-2005 02:20									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by BeBro What's Orwellian about it? Wouldn't Orwellian be where security is all, and freedom nothing? That's no balance at all..... Is it really that evil to say that your freedom is ultimately gone when someone decides to blow you up?

The Orwellian aspect is that we are being continually told how free we are and are continually being made less free. The logical conclusion of this path is the Orwellian society.

Perhaps Ben Franklin put it best: "Those who are willing to sacrifice freedom for security are deserving of neithier"

I'll take my chances in a free society if you please. For Patrick Henry said it all: "Give me liberty or give me death!"

	10-08-2005 02:30									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

The Orwell issue also comes through in double speak too.

"If you don't stand for anything, you don't stand for anything"