09-08-2005 23:48									#1
	My rant (if it is a rant) on Civ Wonders Support Apolyton

I figured that this post deserves its own thread. If that isn't true (perhaps because of the "Wonders that aren't wonderful?" thread), my apologies.

Mainly, I personally figure that just any nation should be able to achieve any wonder (especially if it lacks contact with any other nation with the wonder). However, its culture value would possibly be dropped if they or neighboring nations have seen others complete the wonder first.

Take the pyramids, for example. ...and suppose there are four nations A, B, C, and D. A, B, and C all know each other, but D only knows A. Now suppose C builds some pyramids, making C spread cultural influence to B and A. Then A decides to copy what C did and build their own pyramids. B isn't impressed much and C isn't impressed at all (well, maybe they could be a tad bit), but since D fails to see pyramids until A builds them, they are impressed. I'm not sure how D would react to making contact with C and learning that they built older pyramids, though...

Another thing: why have wonders that count as a regular building in every city? ...like the Hoover Dam acting as a hydro plant in every city with a river? That project didn't place a hydro plant for all those cities. It was just an extra-powerful hudro plant, which could probably be placed on every river that could allow it to be there. (I suppose the first one would have that culture value, though).

I suppose another thing I'm wondering about are those wonders that are more like research breakthroughs than construction projects. In Civ2 and 3, the cure for cancer could be acquired by a single nation that got happier citizens as a result. ...except in the real world, it wasn't (nor will be) built, but instead is expected to be discovered like a research breakthrough. ...so I guess the cure for cancer would be more like a dead-end tech that would bring health to citizens that used and needed it. There's also how Darwin's Voyage would be a Voyage and therefore require ships sailing somewhere, leading to discoveries made early by witnessing stuff that's there.

Some wonders would lose their usefulness (other than through culture), but for different reasons and in different ways. The Great Wall would be useful against units without flight or cannons pretty much throughout the game, but could be torn down by cannons or flown over by planes. The Oracle might be made debunked with the discovery with Theology, but if they aren't the ones who have Theology, then it might not happen quite yet. ...and if the only ones with Theology are too far away for them to contact, then the discovery may as well not affect them at all. ...at least until they do contact.

The UN is kind of an odd wonder in that it might not be something buildable by every nation, or even any one nation. Rather, one nation could build it and its allies could join it. ...and then perhaps others later on. However, if any of the nations on the map don't join the UN, those nations could perhaps join a United Nations 2. I guess it could be something vaguely like NATO and the Warsaw Pact.

These are (so far) merely my opinions, and I'm not sure whether I'm being overanalytical of how wonders work, or even if I'll be able to mod all those ideas into my future copy of the game. I guess now others can comment if they want.

Last edited by TimeTraveler on 10-08-2005 at 00:05

	10-08-2005 00:00									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Well i think your post is sorta long enough to warrant its own thread.

But its hardly a rant. You're not seething at all.

	10-08-2005 02:44									#3
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I think its a mistake to try and make Civ to realistic. Its a game and most of its versions and variants have worked perfectly well by their own internal rules.
Wonders are a reward for a costly investment and being able to make that costly investment first.

If you start getting too worried about reality you might end up with the Pyramids being an Egypt-only wonder.

	10-08-2005 05:39									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well, it is true that the rule of one of each wonder per game has worked in the past. I merely have thought of this idea for some time and wanted to propose it. I suppose I ought to test this on a "wonder"-less (or all small wonders if I chose to test it on Civ 3) mod of civ before posting. XP ...although it would still be possible that I'd be among a small percentage that likes it.

I'd never modify a wonder into being only buildable by certain nations. ...like pyramids being Egypt-only. XP

	10-08-2005 16:34									#5
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Senethro I think its a mistake to try and make Civ to realistic. Its a game and most of its versions and variants have worked perfectly well by their own internal rules. Wonders are a reward for a costly investment and being able to make that costly investment first. If you start getting too worried about reality you might end up with the Pyramids being an Egypt-only wonder.

But this is about reality. The Egyptians weren't the only civilisation to build pyramids, take the ziggurats in asia or the Aztec and Miyan pyramids in south america. Are these wonders made less wonderous just because someone on the other side of the world with whom they had no contact built them first, doesn't mean that you stop building them, how would you know that they had been built in the first place?
Did the US stop it's space program when the USSR put the first man into space? No.
Did the building of the UN in London and then subsequently in New York, did every nation in the world automatically join it when it was built? No.
Realism is important in a game like this. As long as it doesn't go overboard.

	13-08-2005 08:29									#6
	Support Apolyton

I've always had a problem with this too and I completely agree. What makes a wonder so wondrous? What made the pyramids more wondrous than the others? The circumstances around its building (impossible to do or the time it was built or why it was built and, in most cases, the shear size of it) and who was impressed by it (most of the early civilized world was impressed by the Egyptian pyramids and that carried throughout history).

It's very simple to change the behaviour a bit too.
- If the wonder is built then you can no longer build it.
- If the wonder is built WHILE you're building it then you have the option to complete it still but will receive "runner-up" bonuses.
- If you are the first to build the wonder then you will get the full benefits.

In the case of the United Nations this should be removed. Instead, once more than half the nations of the world (or maybe 2/3) they all have the option of creating a United Nations. This would work simlarly to the New Orion Senate in that sanctions imposed by the UN are mandatory for all members. Lots of other cool things could come from this arrangement too.

The Cure for Cancer should also be removed. It's a scientific breakthrough and shouldn't really be there.

There are a lot of other things in the world that can be considered wonders (what about the Coliseum in Rome since this was more impressive than the others in the empire and is still around as a tourist attraction and has quite a history).

	13-08-2005 12:44									#7
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Sounds like there are some sore losers in this thread.

To the Victor go the spoils.

	13-08-2005 16:18									#8
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by TitanTim The Cure for Cancer should also be removed. It's a scientific breakthrough and shouldn't really be there.

Well, so were Harrison's Chronometers, and they 'wondrously' allowed the British to get a head start on the opposition.

But they also relied on a plethora of advances relating to metallurgy, horology, mathematics, astronomy, cartography, and so on, and the building of pyramids, great walls, lighthouses and hanging gardens could also be said to be wonders constructed with the knowledge accumulated from previous scientific advances, in mathematics, geometry, engineering and so on.

	13-08-2005 20:11									#9
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by TitanTim I've always had a problem with this too and I completely agree. What makes a wonder so wondrous? What made the pyramids more wondrous than the others? The circumstances around its building (impossible to do or the time it was built or why it was built and, in most cases, the shear size of it) and who was impressed by it (most of the early civilized world was impressed by the Egyptian pyramids and that carried throughout history). It's very simple to change the behaviour a bit too. - If the wonder is built then you can no longer build it. - If the wonder is built WHILE you're building it then you have the option to complete it still but will receive "runner-up" bonuses. - If you are the first to build the wonder then you will get the full benefits.

Sounds nice.
The amount of runner up bonuses could be dependand on how long after the first one you complete your wonder.
For example,
if you complete a wonder one turn after the first builder of the wonder completed it, you might receive 90% of the bonuses, the first builder got,
but if you complete if 10 turns after him, you might only get 50% of the bonuses.

As for the "Cure of Cancer", IMHO it should work this way:
After building the "Cure of Cancer"-Wonder all Civilizations receive the Happines-Bonuses.
But being the first one to build it means, that you patented it and all other Civilizations have to pay a certain amount of money to you every turn (similar to the Hollywood-Wonder of CtP2).

This also means that this would be one of the few wonders, where you can really apply the "Winner takes all"-Principle (as it is a race for who is the first to patent the anti cancer drug)

	13-08-2005 21:33									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

NO! WINNER TAKES ALL!

	13-08-2005 21:42									#11
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Senethro NO! WINNER TAKES ALL!

Very objective.

	13-08-2005 22:57									#12
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Frankly, I have come to the conclusion that the Wonders are overpowered, anyway. Let's be realistic--in world history, the building of such wonders has had minimal effect on the direction of civilizations. In truth, they are more a consequence of a culture's thriving, not an impetus to it. In many ways, past Civ incarnations (esp. Civ2) have seemed more a game of "Race to the Wonders" over everything else.

So I'm for toning them down a bit. The "Wonder X Builds Improvement X in all Cities" power is certainly ridiculously powerful, not to mention plain silly.

	14-08-2005 01:18									#13
	Suffering from ads?

Some wonders are overpowered in their respective games. (Cloudbase Academy, I'm looking at you.) But how else do you reward the person that is currently winning the game? Whats the point of being 10 turns ahead of your opponent if you get nothing for it? 10 turns is probably not enough turn advantage to crush your opponent underfoot but is certainly enough to snaffle a project that DOES give you the turn advantage.

I think wonders are good because they can shift the balance of power between players thus giving them reason to attack one another. Without wonders to gloriously liberate from my opponents I think I would take the safer route of building in an armed peace.

As I've said before, it sounds like some people have lost and are bitter about it, but to appease them would create a less interesting and dynamic game.

Oh, and silly/unrealistic do not apply in the Firaxiverse.

	14-08-2005 03:53									#14
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Senethro ....................... Oh, and silly/unrealistic do not apply in the Firaxiverse.

I have to agree!

I don't expect realism, I expect fun. But I want some immersion, too...

	14-08-2005 05:11									#15
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

As Sid has said (paraphrasing) when fun comes into conflict with realism, fun wins. It's a good theory, IMO. Realism is ok, but too much ruins it (unless you are making a wargame).

Wonders may be overpowered, but IMO they made the game much more fun. It allows a race for wonders as well as a race of territory and creates greater options to games.

	17-08-2005 10:04									#17
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Proteus_MST Sounds nice. The amount of runner up bonuses could be dependand on how long after the first one you complete your wonder. For example, if you complete a wonder one turn after the first builder of the wonder completed it, you might receive 90% of the bonuses, the first builder got, but if you complete if 10 turns after him, you might only get 50% of the bonuses. As for the "Cure of Cancer", IMHO it should work this way: After building the "Cure of Cancer"-Wonder all Civilizations receive the Happines-Bonuses. But being the first one to build it means, that you patented it and all other Civilizations have to pay a certain amount of money to you every turn (similar to the Hollywood-Wonder of CtP2). This also means that this would be one of the few wonders, where you can really apply the "Winner takes all"-Principle (as it is a race for who is the first to patent the anti cancer drug)

Excellent!