10-08-2005 09:29									#1
	Is SP or MP more important for a TBS game? Enter the AD-FREE zone

Greetings Apolytonians:

[if i picked the wrong forum for this post, please relocate]

I'm in the very beginning stages of putting together a turn-based space strategy like Master of Orion, et al. Lately, the few TBS games that have come out have tried to push multiplayer as a selling feature. However, designing this kind of game with multiplayer support is going to be a LOT of extra work, possibly not worth the trouble for my project. My questions for you are:

Is it more important for a TBS game to have enjoyable multiplayer support or a good solid AI for single player? If you had to make the game only single player or only multiplayer, which would you rather have?

In my small design circle, we are all leaning towards "concentrate on single player, flesh out multiplayer afterwards." So my current idea is to leave multiplayer "hooks" in the code but not actually program all the networking (right away). Of course, it would be faster to simply program the game strictly as a single player experience. Personally i would almost never play multiplayer.

I'm looking for input from as many people as i can reach. What do you think i should do?

	10-08-2005 09:45									#2
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For me, there is no question. I much prefer MP.
Civ 3 blew chunks and pissed me off to no end.

	10-08-2005 09:48									#3
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For me it's single player. That's where you can get the great, epic game experience.

	10-08-2005 09:53									#4
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For an independent release, I'd say if you have a big community of followers, go for MP, if not, SP.

	10-08-2005 09:54									#5
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For me it´s SP, definitely.
MP is a nice addition which I´d use now and then, but most of the time it would be SP

	10-08-2005 11:47									#6
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SP.
It is very difficult for most people to find people who are available to play MP with.

	10-08-2005 11:53									#7
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SP is more important ... but I'm not sure MP should be ignored pre-release either. And, for an indy publisher, MP might be better simply due to how much easier it is to code MP than to code an amazing AI.

	10-08-2005 11:56									#8
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If it's only one or the other, then definitely single player. That being said, good multiplayer support is not an excuse for weak AI. One of the major problems with most TBS games is that they have weak automation AI, which forces players to micromanage, often more than they'd like...even with the focus on multiplayer, you still need automation AI. And once you have that, it's not a whole lot more to just make an AI opponent anyways.

	10-08-2005 12:04									#9
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I find that games with strong single player experience have a weak multiplayer experience.

On the other hand games with a strong multi-player experience often have a weak single-player experience.

In the First Person Shooter world, I liked Half Life 2, and the Medal of Honor series, but not in multiplayer. In single player, these are some of the best games ever.

For Multiplayer shooter, I think the Battlefield series is easily the best ever.

	10-08-2005 12:06									#10
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SP - AI is very, very hard to do for something as open as Civ or MoO. Even after all these years the computer players still suck without cheating.

	10-08-2005 12:29									#11
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SP

multiplayer games suck. I either get in a game with a jackass who knows nothing about strategy and I roll right over him. Or I schedule games with some of you guys at Apolyton who read every single strategy thread and kick my ass .

I'm an average player, and I can't find average opponents.

	10-08-2005 12:37									#12
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I prefer single player in TBS games. In multiplayer games of this genre (RTS and RPG too), there's just too much powergaming. When opponents are simply looking for the shortest path to victory, rather than looking for an immersive experience, its just not much fun at all.

In TBS games, particularly Civ, I look for immersion, to role play, to enter the mindset of a certain type of person... in this case, the benevolent, omnipresent dictator of a fictional incarnation of a civ. To interact with this randomly generated world in a way such that a rich plot can form.

Multiplayer games just don't stimulate my imagination in the way single player games can.

	10-08-2005 12:53									#13
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I agree with Jethro, the immersion is a big factor.

	10-08-2005 12:55									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker I agree with Jethro, the immersion is a big factor.

that's what she said.

	10-08-2005 12:57									#15
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That's a pretty good one.

	10-08-2005 14:11									#16
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Single player is much more popular than multiplayer, but there's really no reason why both cannot be done in the same game. TBS multiplayer is vastly improved with simultaneous turn resolution, which is to say that everyone gives their orders when they are all in the computer resolves the turn and returns results to all of the players. This cuts the amount of time necessary for a PBEM game immensely (at least in half). It also can reduce player mm / powergaming, which in turn can significantly improve the competitiveness of AI.

	10-08-2005 14:46									#17
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I think with most games bar purely online ones, that single player is the most important, and multiplayer is a bonus.

Real time strategy I would consider the reverse.

Turn based strategy in multiplayer is too much of a hassle.

	10-08-2005 17:33									#18
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SP with great AI is much more importante to me than MP in a TBS game.

I find that most MP opponents are loud mouthed blowhards who give up at the first sign of boredom or a loss of some sort.

The only people you can trust to play MP with is family members and best friends.

MP

SP

	10-08-2005 18:12									#19
	Re: Is SP or MP more important for a TBS game? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by leiavoia Greetings Apolytonians: [if i picked the wrong forum for this post, please relocate] I'm in the very beginning stages of putting together a turn-based space strategy like Master of Orion, et al. Lately, the few TBS games that have come out have tried to push multiplayer as a selling feature. However, designing this kind of game with multiplayer support is going to be a LOT of extra work, possibly not worth the trouble for my project.... In my small design circle, we are all leaning towards "concentrate on single player, flesh out multiplayer afterwards." So my current idea is to leave multiplayer "hooks" in the code but not actually program all the networking (right away). Of course, it would be faster to simply program the game strictly as a single player experience. Personally i would almost never play multiplayer.

My question to you would be is this a labor of love on your part, or are you doing it for the intent of sales? If its the former I'd say go with SP, but if its latter MP would definately be advisable.



D

	10-08-2005 18:12									#20
	Got spare money?

SP is the most important for me, because of how little time i have to arrange MP games.

but the game better have MP, or else it doesnt play very long for me. I'm still playing Hearts of Iron 2 because of intense multiplayer games between me and a handful of friends.

	10-08-2005 18:16									#21
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No matter how good the AI is, human opponents are still more fun... usually smarter and more unpredictable.

Yeah, the SP experience will be more important to most people... But MP should be designed into the game from the beginning instead of being a poor after thought. There is no reason why both can't be included in a game in a meaningful way.

	10-08-2005 18:55									#22
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oh yeah, don't forget moddability.

	10-08-2005 19:01									#23
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I have yet to see such a thing as a good AI. I tried to build a neural net based learning algorithm to play a turn based war game. The basis function was incredibly difficult to get right. The AI learned when to attack and when not to in order to win a particular battle, but it was useless for:
deciding what to build in the cities
making strategic decisions such as targetting cities and massing large attacks
making use of transports (the game had jeeps, bombers that could carry 1 infantry, and sea transports)

	10-08-2005 19:21									#24
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SP for me

but I'd like the option of MP, even though I have yet to play a single Civ game in MP

	10-08-2005 19:22									#25
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hey, where's the poll option for banana?

and I think there should be another option "SP with a poor AI"

	10-08-2005 19:56									#26
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The point Dis tried to make about MP being too hard for him or too easy isn't confined to just MP.
Sure, have SP as an option. Civ II did,
Civ 3 didn't and like I said...

	10-08-2005 20:21									#27
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Civ 3 is just garbage

	10-08-2005 20:33									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Og SP. It is very difficult for most people to find people who are available to play MP with.

I agree.

[Sir Og is from Bulgaria. Apolyton just keeps getting more multinational all the time!]

	10-08-2005 20:49									#29
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Zkribber I have registered in 2001 but i mostly lurk around here. So Poly is multinational as far as Bulgaria is concerned from a long time ago.
There is also atleast on more poster from Bulgaria who frequents the MOO forum.

	10-08-2005 20:57									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Well stop lurking! One of the main reasons I hang around this forum is to get opinions & points-of-view from all over the world. IMHO, Bulgars are most welcome, and so from now on, speak up!