10-08-2005 10:22									#1
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From what I understand of the religion system, religions are attached to certain technologies. So I got to thinking and I wondered what would happen if you researched the technologies for all religions. This raises several questions:

1. Would you be able to make one city the holy city for all religions, or would you have to use multiple cities.

2. Would you get all the benefits of every religion.

3. What would happen if you outlawed a religion whose holy city is in your empire.

4. What would would happen if a country that has a large population of Hindus (for example) declared war on the nation which controlled the Hindu holy city.

5. Would you recieve any special bonuses for having control over every holy city.

From what I understand, if you control a holy city you get tribute from the followers of that religion and you share line-of-sight with cities that have a high population of followers of that religion. Therefor you could have a huge amount of influence if you could spread religion all over the world.

What are your opinions on this matter?

	10-08-2005 10:51									#2
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1. I think this will either be determined randomly or the city whose scientific contribution led to the technological breakthrough (AFAIK [Civ 3] the Science points are added city by city in the order the cities were built) will be the holy city for the religion. So IMHO one city could, by chance, be holy city for multiple or even all religions, but it isn´t you who decides this.

2. Depends on which benefits you mean. If there are religion specific benefits for your cities / empire,the city/empire IMHO will get the benefits of the religion which has the majority in the city/empire. But you probably still would get the effect of all holy cities in your empire no matter which religion dominates your Civilization (as long as practicers of other religions are free to practice their religion within your empire).

3. Good question. Maybe you would only get the benefits of the holy city, if this religion is allowed within your empire.

4. Probably just dependend on the religion which has the majority in the enemy empire. If they´re also híndus your population probably won´t be too happy to wage war against the other empire. But if the enemy empire s dominated by another religion they won´t have any problems with fighting them. Of course it would even be better if Firaxis had included some kind of crusade-effect (Free our holy city from these unbelievers). Well, lets hope Firaxis has done so

5. I doubt this. After all it is already powerful enough to get money from all believers in any religion from all over the world

	10-08-2005 10:58									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Proteus_MST 1. I think this will either be determined randomly or the city whose scientific contribution led to the technological breakthrough (AFAIK [Civ 3] the Science points are added city by city in the order the cities were built) will be the holy city for the religion. So IMHO one city could, by chance, be holy city for multiple or even all religions, but it isn´t you who decides this.

Actually, I think Firaxis had said that you will be able to choose which city to make holy.

	10-08-2005 15:13									#4
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quote: From what I understand, if you control a holy city you get tribute from the followers of that religion and you share line-of-sight with cities that have a high population of followers of that religion. Therefor you could have a huge amount of influence if you could spread religion all over the world.

You might be right regarding the tribute thing, but the line of sight was scrapped (for now) according to Firaxis.

	10-08-2005 16:40									#5
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Thought LOS was re-installed again after that. Might be wrong tho.

	10-08-2005 17:04									#6
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I haven't seen any mentioning of it being reintroduced, but I might of course be wrong too.

	10-08-2005 18:20									#7
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Let's keep it at that one of us is wrong.

	10-08-2005 19:21									#8
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That much I have grasped.

	10-08-2005 19:25									#9
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My understandings:
2. You only get the benefits of your STATE religion.
3. Who said you can outlaw a religion?
5. Again, bonuses only apply for your State religion (and you can only have one).

	10-08-2005 19:33									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe 3. Who said you can outlaw a religion?

Ever heard of religious persecution? It was and is pretty usual in large parts of the world.

	10-08-2005 21:20									#11
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Alright, I'll rephrase that:
3. Who said you can outlaw a religion in Civ4?

	10-08-2005 21:31									#12
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I think something along that line was mentioned a long time ago.

	10-08-2005 21:38									#13
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OK, a quick search does not find anything specific on religious persecution, but what I did find, was that citizens not of your state religion will get a happiness penalty. That could be seen as a PC way to include religious persecution.

	11-08-2005 00:01									#14
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If you can choose the Holy City for a Religion then I dont see why the "Holy Site" isn't just handled as a generic wonder of the World. So far are their any functional differences in how a Holy City works vs a City with a Wonder?

Presumably only the first discoverer of the unlocking tech gets to make this wonder (dont realy see why though), and their is no cost assosiated with the action.

Another cool option, perhaps you get a "Messiaha" Settler unit that works just like a normal City founding Settler BUT what ever they found or merge with becomes the Holy City. They spawn in your capital (so its easy to put him their which is the logical strategic and historicaly acurate thing to do). Or you could march him off to build a new city someware else.

A major question I have is...

Is it possible for a Holy City to be destroyed/lost/eliminated completly. Say if I Nuke a Holy City to ashes dose the Religion just relocate to a new holy city within the same empire.

Now assuming Holy Cities can be destroyed what dose that do to the Religion, is it eliminated? Dose it slowly die out from not being spread? If all players are going against a particular religion and activly trying to squish it will it drop off the Earth completly? I think it should be able to IF the situation is as I described (No Holy City, No temples, All players pushing other Religions). It would be very interesting and hitoricaly accurate.

	11-08-2005 00:07									#15
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The thing that I don't like about the whole holy city concept is that it's a western-religion concept - eastern religions don't have holy cities.

	11-08-2005 00:11									#16
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quote: eastern religions don't have holy cities

What about Mecca, Medina and Jerusalem for Islam?

	11-08-2005 00:13									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Solver quote: eastern religions don't have holy cities What about Mecca, Medina and Jerusalem for Islam?

Sorry, by eastern I meant east of the middle-east. My bad.

	11-08-2005 01:43									#18
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Isn't Lhasa considered such for a certain religion?

	11-08-2005 02:10									#19
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Benares/Varanasi? It's no Mecca, but it's certainly sufficient counter-example.

	11-08-2005 02:34									#20
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quote: Originally posted by sophist Benares/Varanasi? It's no Mecca, but it's certainly sufficient counter-example.

It'll do in a pinch, but I don't like it. Not quite the same thing. In any case, definitely nothing like that for Buddhists, Taoists, Confuciasts (sp?).

	11-08-2005 02:52									#21
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quote: Sorry, by eastern I meant east of the middle-east. My bad.

Aye, and some even go as far as to debate whether those ARE religions. Take Taoism. The works of Lao Zi are more aking to philosophical works, and Taoism can also be validly described as a philosopihcal school and not a religion.

Confucianism, AFAIK, is also a school of thought based on works of Confucius, and does not have worship of a deity or many deities.

	11-08-2005 04:02									#22
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quote: Originally posted by LordShiva It'll do in a pinch, but I don't like it. Not quite the same thing. In any case, definitely nothing like that for Buddhists, Taoists, Confuciasts (sp?).

Well, it's not like Holy City is a super powerful thing. As far as I can tell, what it means is that's where the religion starts, there's some degree of veneration for the site, and it enables construction of certain special wonders. It doesn't, however, mean that you can command adherents of that faith if you control it. That seems compatible with Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. Those were all religions that started somewhere, after all. Can't say much about Taoism or Confucianism, though, but then, I don't think those should be the other two game religions as it is.

	11-08-2005 04:03									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Aye, and some even go as far as to debate whether those ARE religions. Take Taoism. The works of Lao Zi are more aking to philosophical works, and Taoism can also be validly described as a philosopihcal school and not a religion. Confucianism, AFAIK, is also a school of thought based on works of Confucius, and does not have worship of a deity or many deities.

True but I consider religion to be an organized belief concerning the supernatural or spirituality. Therefore I think all seven of the religions qualify as such. However I'm disappointed at the selection of religions in the game.

I think that some sort of Greco-Roman mythology should be included. I don't think we need three far eastern religions that all have many similarities. There should be a greater variety of religions.

	11-08-2005 04:20									#24
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Claiming that Taoism and Confucianism are similar is not really correct. And both are more than an organized belief concerning spirituality and the supernatural. In fact, Judaism and Christianity are also more than that.

Taoism is largely about Tao, the way of the Universe, which everyone and everything follows. Taoism is based on following the works of Lao Zi and Zhuang Zi, and those do not say anything about gods. In China, though, some people worship Lao Zi as well as have magic rituals, alchemy-style things and such. But the core Taoist philosophical system is not about gods.

Confucianism is based on works of Confucius, which may have some ideas similar to the Taoist ones, but the works are overall different, as is the philosophy. Confucius does make mention of other beings, and there are also rituals in Confucianism, but there's no worshipping of a god or deities nonetheless.

Islam is completely different to those two. Islam is a religion in any sense of the word, since it has a god that is worshipped.

If it was my call, I'd replace Confucianism in the game with Shintoism, as it's undeniably a religion, and because there are less similarities between Shintoism and Taoism. However, I'm also fine with the current choice.

	11-08-2005 04:28									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Solver Claiming that Taoism and Confucianism are similar is not really correct. And both are more than an organized belief concerning spirituality and the supernatural. In fact, Judaism and Christianity are also more than that.

I'm aware of that. I'm just saying that I consider any organized belief concerning spirituality and the supernatural to be a religion. I was not implying that Taoism and Confucianism are simply organized beliefs concerning spirituality and the supernatural. I was just stating my criteria for something to be considered a religion.

	11-08-2005 04:54									#26
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I was responding to you saying "I don't think we need three far eastern religions that all have many similarities". Whether Confucianism is at all a belief concerning the supernatural is still debateable.

	11-08-2005 12:25									#27
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I would consider Islamic Countries West of India to be part of Western Civilization. Cristianity, Judisim and Islam are all derived from Abraham who basicaly started the Monotheism as we know it in the furtile cresent several thousand years ago.

I would like to see religions that have disapeared in modern society (the Civ4 list is heavily biased towards religions that still exist), just a short lits of "dead" religions.

Animalism (orsomething to this effect representing Animal/Nature worship)
Helenism (greeko-roman Mythology)
Paganism (Celtic and Norse systems)
??? (Egyptian mythology, cant think of a good name)

	11-08-2005 18:35									#28
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quote: Originally posted by evilnerd15 I don't think we need three far eastern religions that all have many similarities. There should be a greater variety of religions.

There are only two far-easter religions.

I would've liked to see some sort of Greco-Roman religion.

	14-08-2005 02:29									#29
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I found this on Firaxis' home page, under "Ask Sid". I don't think this has been linked to yet:

quote: Question: I am a big fan of all of your games. I have been playing Civilization since the first one was released and I can not wait for Civilization IV. I do have a question about Civilization IV as it relates to religion. Can your government have no state religion? If so can they influence border nations with their secular beliefs? Sid: Hello Orie! Yes, the default is Paganism, which means there is no organized religion. At the other end of the spectrum is Free Religion and that offers tolerance of all religions. It's not possible to spread no religion where there is already religion. It's a play mechanic, but I am pretty sure it holds up that way in history as well.

	14-08-2005 11:32									#30
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"It's not possible to spread no religion where there is already religion"


sounds logical

C'mon and just ship it