11-08-2005 09:56									#31
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand The batter is only a hitter, if he hits it.

Maybe he's a swinger?

My real gripe with baseball is it all seems so random. If the batter hits the ball or not - and how he manages to hit it - seems more a matter of chance than anything else. Many times it will go over the side lines and into where the fans are seated, and more often than not he won't hit it at all.

Of course it takes great skill to bat and to pitch, and I think the players' skills are quite impressive, but still the outcome of the pitchings (or what they're called) - and by extension the entire game - seems wholly arbitrary.

And boring.

	11-08-2005 09:57									#32
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now that you mention it, there are too many foul balls in baseball. The game would be sped up incredibly if there were no foul balls. Put up hockey glass all along the edges and have the ball bounce off and the ball will be in play.

	11-08-2005 10:05									#33
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quote: My real gripe with baseball is it all seems so random. If the batter hits the ball or not - and how he manages to hit it - seems more a matter of chance than anything else. Many times it will go over the side lines and into where the fans are seated, and more often than not he won't hit it at all.

In baseball, a .240 hitter will get demoted to the minor leagues while a .340 hitter is near tops in the league. Only 10 percentage points between them. So that perception isn't so far from the truth.

However, if you can handle a game that consists of mostly failure for even the best players, then that's not bad per se.

	11-08-2005 10:06									#34
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quote: If the batter hits the ball or not - and how he manages to hit it - seems more a matter of chance than anything else.

If you do it so many times in a row often enough, how can it be mere chance? Someone that can hit the ball 30% of the time is doing far better than simply acting on chance. How can it be considered 'arbitrary' when they can do it that well over time.

quote: originally posted by Dis now that you mention it, there are too many foul balls in baseball. The game would be sped up incredibly if there were no foul balls. Put up hockey glass all along the edges and have the ball bounce off and the ball will be in play.

Uh... no . Foul balls serve a good purpose. They keep the at bat alive. When you are just missing what pitch it is or where it is going, getting some wood on the ball allows you to stay alive and have the pitcher waste pitches... until you can a pitch to hit.

	11-08-2005 10:08									#35
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quote: Originally posted by DanS In baseball, a .240 hitter will get demoted to the minor leagues while a .340 hitter is near tops in the league. Only 10 percentage points between them. So that perception isn't so far from the truth. However, if you can handle a game that consists of mostly failure for even the best players, then that's not bad per se.

But when a player can consistently hit over .300, how can you chalk it up merely to chance? The 162 game season takes away chance.

	11-08-2005 10:10									#36
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The problem with baseball is simple: too much downtime, too much of the time people are standing around with fingers up their asses.

The game moves slowly, the action consists usually of a man staring at the catcher and preparing to pitch. Then he throws the ball, and an umpire makes a hand motion, then 5 minutes later they try again.

If you get lucky, someone will hit the ball...but it'll be a fly ball that's caught and we're back to square one.

Too little goes on in baseball over too long a period. It's a terrible sport, the only reason it's so huge is it's an "American past time" that kids grow up with.

	11-08-2005 10:13									#37
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How did I know I could count on a simplistic explination from Asher?

There are tons of baseball fans that didn't grow up with the game because of their parents' liking of the game. Not just in the US, but in the Caribbean and Japan especially.

Hell, you can find plenty of people who can similarly say that hockey is only a Big 4 sport because it's the "Canadian Pastime" and kids have grown up with it.

	11-08-2005 10:14									#38
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Baseball is American as apple pie, but it's still boring for the most part.
Basketball bytes until the last minute.
Hockey is a cage match on ice.
Soccer is for little French school girls.


Give me American football and keep the rest.

	11-08-2005 10:14									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui But when a player can consistently hit over .300, how can you chalk it up merely to chance? The 162 game season takes away chance.

I hear you, but for someone who picks up a game here and there, indeed it does appear random.

	11-08-2005 10:15									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui If you do it so many times in a row often enough, how can it be mere chance? Someone that can hit the ball 30% of the time is doing far better than simply acting on chance. How can it be considered 'arbitrary' when they can do it that well over time.

You miss my point, Imran. I'm not dissing the batters and their ability. I'm quite impressed with their skill, as I said. What I'm getting at is how this 'randomness' affects the game itself. You only get so many batting attempts in a game, and whether the final score is 2-1 for the home team or 4-2 for the away team seems to me to be more of a coincidence resulting from the combined good luck of the batters on that particular day, than anything else. Not like in basketball or soccer, where you get the play going back and forth, producing scoring opportunities (most of the time) directly dependant on the relative strengths of the two sides.

	11-08-2005 10:17									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui How did I know I could count on a simplistic explination from Asher?

Because the reasoning is simple.

Americans are slow people who like slow games. They like having the downtime because it prevents them from having heart attacks due to being massively overweight with poor diets.

Slow games suck. That's why the NHL doesn't do very well in the States, it's too fast. And God forbid there's violence in the sport, and as we all know -- Americans do not buy into violence in video games, so why would they in sports?

	11-08-2005 10:17									#42
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I hear you, but for someone who picks up a game here and there, indeed it does appear random.

Ahhh, I get you now. Yeah, I guess I can agree with that, but I find with any sport that people are unfamilar with it appears random (ie, not that much skill) and boring. That is what it seems to me when you discuss soccer with Americans sometimes.

	11-08-2005 10:19									#43
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Of course American football is faster and more violent than hockey, but don't let that stop your uninformed rant, Asher .

	11-08-2005 10:20									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Of course American football is faster and more violent than hockey, but don't let that stop your uninformed rant, Asher .

Err...how do you figure?

American football has tons of stoppage of plays. And they certainly don't run faster than players can skate.

I don't see how football is, in any way, faster than hockey. It's considerably slower with far more breaks.

And it's not more violent either. They wear enough protection and padding that it's pretty much a joke. How many fights are there in football?

	11-08-2005 10:20									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Asher The problem with baseball is simple: too much downtime, too much of the time people are standing around with fingers up their asses. The game moves slowly, the action consists usually of a man staring at the catcher and preparing to pitch. Then he throws the ball, and an umpire makes a hand motion, then 5 minutes later they try again. If you get lucky, someone will hit the ball...but it'll be a fly ball that's caught and we're back to square one. Too little goes on in baseball over too long a period. It's a terrible sport, the only reason it's so huge is it's an "American past time" that kids grow up with.

I agree with this completely. This is my impression of the game also, admittedly as an outsider. But it is a very slow and protracted game with little action to it, compared to other sports.

	11-08-2005 10:22									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Winston I agree with Asher's penultimate post completely. This is my impression of the game also, admittedly as an outsider. But it is a very slow and protracted game with little action to it, compared to other sports.

I played little league for four years in California and have attended many MLB games, so it's not just your opinion as an outsider.

Americans are brainwashed.

Baseball is a decent game to play with friends, though.

	11-08-2005 10:22									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Winston You miss my point, Imran. I'm not dissing the batters and their ability. I'm quite impressed with their skill, as I said. What I'm getting at is how this 'randomness' affects the game itself. You only get so many batting attempts in a game, and whether the final score is 2-1 for the home team or 4-2 for the away team seems to me to be more of a coincidence resulting from the combined good luck of the batters on that particular day, than anything else. Not like in basketball or soccer, where you get the play going back and forth, producing scoring opportunities (most of the time) directly dependant on the relative strengths of the two sides.

I understand the appearance of randomness as DanS said, but if you follow the game, you realize it isn't about that. It isn't the good luck of the batters on a particular day, but how the matchups work out. How the pitcher is pitching on that day and if the batters can figure him out (and use their skill to slam the ball) is what wins games (hitting-wise).

It's why baseball probably has the most statistics of any sport in existance. Both sides look for beneficial matchups so their skills will prevail.

	11-08-2005 10:23									#48
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Ok, Asher. Watch it with the generalities.

	11-08-2005 10:24									#49
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quote: It's why baseball probably has the most statistics of any sport in existance.

Baseball has the most statistics because there's so little game actually involved.

There's so much downtime people resort to math and calculations to salvage their sanity and fill the air with nonsense instead of silence.

Baseball is more about a game of probability and suspense than a sport.

	11-08-2005 10:28									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Err...how do you figure? American football has tons of stoppage of plays. And they certainly don't run faster than players can skate. I don't see how football is, in any way, faster than hockey. It's considerably slower with far more breaks. And it's not more violent either. They wear enough protection and padding that it's pretty much a joke. How many fights are there in football?

Every play has players on each side running at a full sprint trying to get 'open' or to get past the defense or a block. You have WR, CB, RB, even QB on each team that could be fairly decent sprinters.

As for violence, there are a great number of bonecrunching tackles per game which are just as vicious as any Scott Stevens hit bringing down a skater going through the middle. And don't act like hockey players don't wear pads . They basically wear the same pads that an American football player wears (shoulder pads, leg pads, rib pads... the only difference is in the helmet really). The amount of big hits beats out the fights in hockey... difference being they are actually a part of the gameplay.

	11-08-2005 10:33									#51
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Major League Baseball is what it is. No more, no less.

Sunny days. Beer, hot dogs, sausages, and peanuts. Watching a game in the city played on pedicured turf. Conversations with friends about baseball or something else entirely. Cheering for the home team when you feel like it. Taunting the opposing team when you feel like it. Statistics. Trying to catch errant balls and booing fans that don't catch them and cheering the fans that do, especially little kids. Singing a couple songs in the middle of the 7th inning. 6 days a week for 6 months.

If this doesn't sound fun to you, then it probably won't be. No use criticizing baseball for something it isn't.

Last edited by DanS on 11-08-2005 at 10:40

	11-08-2005 10:39									#52
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DanS

Though I'll watch it on TV anytime two good teams (or even not that ) are on. Pump up the statistics and it's more intense in terms of follow the game. It, of course, helps when you get announcers that can pull some finer points out of the game. You get to play along with the strategy (yell at the TV, play coach a bit ).

	11-08-2005 10:41									#53
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Sounds like a comfortable tradition more than an exciting sport.

Which is what MLB is.

	11-08-2005 10:42									#54
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Cause the Japanese and Latin American fans arose out of.... tradition?

	11-08-2005 10:44									#55
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I realise there is of course more to the game in terms of strategy and matchups than meets the eye of the (very) casual and occasional onlooker.

But consider that in soccer for instance, you will often get the top teams playing 10-15 matches in a row without losing any. Their relative advantage over the other teams is reflected over 90 minutes of (near) full time action on the field, in each game. I don't know for sure, but I don't think you have nearly the same consistency of the top teams in baseball. That's where the randomness comes in. In soccer, basketball and other sports, you don't have that kind of (apparent) chance element, at least it's very rare that you get a game that's decided by mere chance. And so, it makes headlines, it's a sensation. Not so with baseball, it seems.

And in any case, you don't have nearly as much play-time, not even 1/10 of it, compared to soccer. Even if baseball games are often nominally nearly twice as long as soccer games.

And the elaborate statistics side of baseball is a huge mystery to me. The playing fields' dimensions are not uniform, so what relevance do running and pitching stats have, other than to possibly compensate for some kind of excitement that should be part of the game itself, but isn't..

	11-08-2005 10:44									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Cause the Japanese and Latin American fans arose out of.... tradition?

"I, for one, welcome our new American overlords."

	11-08-2005 10:52									#57
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It might be helpful in understanding baseball to look at it as an everyday game more than an action sport.

As a soccer fan, you would be burned out quick if your team played 162 games a year. It would be too much action for everyday.

	11-08-2005 10:52									#58
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quote: originally posted by Winston But consider that in soccer for instance, you will often get the top teams playing 10-15 matches in a row without losing any. Their relative advantage over the other teams is reflected over 90 minutes of (near) full time action on the field, in each game. I don't know for sure, but I don't think you have nearly the same consistency of the top teams in baseball.

I don't know what you mean by having the same consistency of top teams? Top teams go 10-2 during two weeks stands, and even more beyond that. The top teams will be close to 65% victories (over 162 that's very impressive) and will continue that over a number of years.

quote: And in any case, you don't have nearly as much play-time, not even 1/10 of it, compared to soccer. Even if baseball games are often nominally nearly twice as long as soccer games.

The amusing thing is that most Americans consider soccer to be incredibly boring because to them nothing happens (remember that Simpsons episode with the soccer match?). OTOH, following baseball they can see all the stuff that may happen during an at bat: the positioning of the infielders and outfielders based on the inning, the out, the batter and the pitcher. The pitch selection to the particular batter. The batter's recent stats, the pitcher's recent stats, etc.

quote: And the elaborate statistics side of baseball is a huge mystery to me. The playing fields' dimensions are not uniform, so what relevance do running and pitching stats have

Playing fields dimensions don't have to be relative. Most of the relatively new stats are balanced to account for park effects. The stats are highly relevent, more than any other sport's stats. They can tell you what to do against a particular pitcher or particular batter. Which area and pitch to go to against a batter. Whether to put in a lefthander or righthander (it matters). Which player is better, which may not be very obvious because of different skills (ie, a singles hitter who doesn't walk much vs. a batter who walks a lot and has some power but doesn't get many hits).

	11-08-2005 10:53									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Asher "I, for one, welcome our new American overlords."

And Japan's second biggest sport is soccer. Sorry, Asher, try again.

	11-08-2005 10:57									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui And Japan's second biggest sport is soccer. Sorry, Asher, try again.

Why does that matter? Look at their popculture, they're emulating anglo-american culture. They take bits from both.

Japan is just damn quirky in general.