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Carolus Rex is offline Carolus Rex
King
Sweden
Jan 1970
time: 06:37
Smile  Old Post 12-08-2005 22:50
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Everquest II and the quantity theory of money... Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

According to a swedish business site (see first link below, in swedish), some players hacked Everquest II and increased money in circulation in the game with one fifth.

Interestingly, the result was inflation of 20%... For the quantity theory of money, see the second link...

http://www.di.se/Nyheter/

http://cepa.newschool.edu/het/essays/money/quantity.htm

Edit: Scroll down to "Spelhack gav digital inflation" ("Hacking of game gave rise to digital inflation"), it's down to the right...

Carolus

Last edited by Carolus Rex on 12-08-2005 at 23:40

DrSpike is offline DrSpike
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Sep 2001
time: 05:37
  Old Post 12-08-2005 22:57
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I've been thinking about these issues a lot lately because of the various failed attempts to create an in game economy in Guild Wars. Most people can grasp that the money supply is always increasing because of monster drops, so there could be inflation. However, the rarely acknowledged flipside is that in virtually all MMORPG cases money given to NPCs for stuff goes into a void, which can counteract the effect.

Carolus Rex is offline Carolus Rex
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Sweden
Jan 1970
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In english (from Gamespot):

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/0...ws_6130888.html

Carolus

Skanky Burns is offline Skanky Burns
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Skanky Bastard Quartermaster
Aug 2001
time: 14:37
  Old Post 13-08-2005 09:20
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On a certain level, it is quite funny that they are protecting against inflation in an online game.

On the other hand, the in-game economy has direct links with the external (real) economy so it does make sense.

snoopy369 is offline snoopy369

Emperor
Of the Peanuts Gallery
Apr 2004
time: 23:37
  Old Post 13-08-2005 10:54
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In GuildWars, there's a lack of information that's incredibly frustrating, and a lack of 'ease of exchange' that also drives a lot of money OUT of the game. Imagine if all of the players (like me) who are way too lazy to sell their major/minor runes to other players 90% of the time stopped selling to vendors for 100 gold or even less, but started actually trading them in-game (due to some sort of auction mechanism that wasn't a lot of work to use ) ... inflation would go way up then (as less people would spend money at NPCs on runes). (Also the market would work PROPERLY, instead of how it currently does, which is not by any meaningful sense of market economics.)

EQ2 I have little experience with (no playexp.) but I have to assume that if it follows market economics at all, it must have a more informed (ie, 'going price' is not difficult to determine accurately) and more fluid (ie, you can sell something easily and fairly quickly if you sell it at or slightly below going price). Otherwise, the result doesn't mean a whole lot ... and from the "station exchange" element (that I just learned of), although it sounds like that means the game's goods are probably fairly accurate to market values, I also think that the inflation probably was fairly temporary (and would have been regardless of out-of-game action)...

Carolus Rex is offline Carolus Rex
King
Sweden
Jan 1970
time: 06:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Skanky Burns

On a certain level, it is quite funny that they are protecting against inflation in an online game.

On the other hand, the in-game economy has direct links with the external (real) economy so it does make sense.



Yeah... There was another story a couple of weeks ago in the same swedish business daily... It was about an australian student who bought an island in an on-line game (I can't remember the game's name)...

The price was staggering, but he was financially backed by some serious investors... With the island they would sell off property, collect taxes from its future inhabitants etc... They expected to make a nice (real-world) profit...

The article also covered an interview with the game developer (and game world supervisor)... What if they decide to increase available land in the gaming world to meet demand from new players? What about the value of that island (and other existing land) in that case? Or, worse, what if the developer goes bankrupt and closes the game server? Seems that investment in the digital world carries its proper risk too...

There is a great account about the economics of Everquest by an american economist. It also has some great journal entries from the game itself... I'll link to it later, gotta run!

Carolus

Skanky Burns is offline Skanky Burns
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Skanky Bastard Quartermaster
Aug 2001
time: 14:37
  Old Post 13-08-2005 14:47
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A link would be appreciated.

DrSpike is offline DrSpike
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  Old Post 13-08-2005 15:16
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Suffering from ads?

Patience, he said he would post it later.

Skanky Burns is offline Skanky Burns
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Aug 2001
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  Old Post 13-08-2005 15:37
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And I was letting him know his future efforts would not be in vain.
(Seriously)

MarkG is offline MarkG
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Macedonia, Greece
Jan 1970
time: 07:37
  Old Post 13-08-2005 16:00 Visit MarkG<br><img src=/forums/images/admin-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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quote:
Sony claims that a group of hackers illegally created a huge amount of EverQuest II currency over the weekend, and it says the players caused the game's economy to suffer 20 percent inflation in just 24 hours before being caught.
wow, mega corporations fighting inflation

Carolus Rex is offline Carolus Rex
King
Sweden
Jan 1970
time: 06:37
Smile  Old Post 13-08-2005 21:28
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Here's the link to Edward Castronova's paper:

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers....tract_id=294828

Scroll down and download it via the SSRN link. It's witty and well-written; the journal entries at the beginning of each section are nice too...

Carolus

Skanky Burns is offline Skanky Burns
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Aug 2001
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  Old Post 15-08-2005 17:15
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Very interesting read.

Sir Ralph is offline Sir Ralph
Emperor
Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:37
  Old Post 16-08-2005 18:10
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There have been quite some downtimes and a bunchload of bannings (permanently) and freezings (until things are sorted out) in the last week. But the inflation peak was not that horrible as it sounded, and all found out ill-gotten platinum has been deleted. This caused no problems on regular servers and only minor issues on the Exchange servers (which I am of course not part of), because there people paid real money for the virtual cash.

Despite some critic, Sony has quite a good record tracking down botters and pharmers in the near past. And now after the Station Exchange introduction, their efforts even gained teeth, because now traded virtual cash has an equivalent in real currency and thus, activities like this can be prosecuted by civil law, as Sony can claim real losses. Before the introduction of Station Exchange this was hardly possible, no court would have made a case about the loss of virtual money.

Overall Everquest II has a nice in-game economy, better than its predecessor. It has money sources (mob drops either as cash or NPC-sellable goods, and quest rewards) and it has money sinks. These are for instance broker fees (20% in the same city and 40% cross-city), money for status objects like steeds, buyable titles like "Sir" (available for members of high-level guilds) and player housing (private appartments have a weekly rent, the bigger, the more).

So far it was balanced. Not exactly of course, but nearly. Prices and rewards have been adapted several times. The influx of money in the game economy is slightly bigger than the outflux, which is perfectly fine, as achievable money sinks are getting more expensive also. For instance the steed members of guild level 25 can buy using guild status (40% speed bonus), costs 6 platinum, the guild level 30 steed (or flying carpet, 48% speed bonus) costs already 66 platinum. It takes time and effort to accumulate that much, so a little bigger influx than outflux is justified, with keeping in mind, that the money goes poof once the player buys his status steed. All money I made so far in this game in nine months is perhaps 50 platinum, 30 of which I spent.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:37
  Old Post 16-08-2005 18:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Skanky Burns
On a certain level, it is quite funny that they are protecting against inflation in an online game.

On the other hand, the in-game economy has direct links with the external (real) economy so it does make sense.


What's even funnier is the potential to use this sort of thing to teach schoolchildren about economics.

Sir Ralph is offline Sir Ralph
Emperor
Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:37
  Old Post 16-08-2005 19:28
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By the way, who wants to read a true duping story, written in a rather entertaining style, could enjoy this link.

DrSpike is offline DrSpike
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Sep 2001
time: 05:37
  Old Post 16-08-2005 23:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
There have been quite some downtimes and a bunchload of bannings (permanently) and freezings (until things are sorted out) in the last week. But the inflation peak was not that horrible as it sounded, and all found out ill-gotten platinum has been deleted. This caused no problems on regular servers and only minor issues on the Exchange servers (which I am of course not part of), because there people paid real money for the virtual cash.

Despite some critic, Sony has quite a good record tracking down botters and pharmers in the near past. And now after the Station Exchange introduction, their efforts even gained teeth, because now traded virtual cash has an equivalent in real currency and thus, activities like this can be prosecuted by civil law, as Sony can claim real losses. Before the introduction of Station Exchange this was hardly possible, no court would have made a case about the loss of virtual money.


That's an interesting angle. Are they bringing any prosecutions?

Darkstar is offline Darkstar
Prince
Huntsville, AL, USA
May 1999
time: 23:37
  Old Post 17-08-2005 02:33
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Carolus Rex, it sounds like you are talking about this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4104731.stm

Or were you talking about a different noted purchase?

Sir Ralph is offline Sir Ralph
Emperor
Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:37
  Old Post 17-08-2005 04:37
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quote:
Originally posted by DrSpike
That's an interesting angle. Are they bringing any prosecutions?


The Exchange is still new, only running one month. We expect Sony to prepare the first cases carefully, to ensure a victory, as if they lose, the whole thing would be again under question.

conmcb25 is offline conmcb25

Emperor
Angmar
Aug 2002
time: 23:37
  Old Post 18-08-2005 02:46 Visit conmcb25<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/inmate-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
By the way, who wants to read a true duping story, written in a rather entertaining style, could enjoy this link.


That Sir Ralph was a hilarious read.

DrSpike is offline DrSpike
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Sep 2001
time: 05:37
  Old Post 18-08-2005 03:19
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quote:
Originally posted by conmcb25


That Sir Ralph was a hilarious read.


Indeed it was. If it's true they made a fortune.

Carolus Rex is offline Carolus Rex
King
Sweden
Jan 1970
time: 06:37
Thumbs up  Old Post 18-08-2005 23:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkstar

Carolus Rex, it sounds like you are talking about this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4104731.stm

Or were you talking about a different noted purchase?



No, that was the story I read. In the swedish daily the student was named, though... At the BBC site I get the impression he wants to be anonymous...

Carolus

Carolus Rex is offline Carolus Rex
King
Sweden
Jan 1970
time: 06:37
Smile  Old Post 19-08-2005 14:11
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Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The question is whether the quantity theory of money was deliberately put in the code or if it actually manifested itself within the game (some economists do not believe in the theory)...

Carolus

Carolus Rex is offline Carolus Rex
King
Sweden
Jan 1970
time: 06:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph

By the way, who wants to read a true duping story, written in a rather entertaining style, could enjoy this link.



It seems that MMORPGs are the games to be hooked on...

Carolus

Main_Brain is offline Main_Brain
King
Economic World Center
Jul 2002
time: 06:37
  Old Post 19-08-2005 17:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
By the way, who wants to read a true duping story, written in a rather entertaining style, could enjoy this link.


That really made my Day
Dupe, Lie and Steal - thats the Cobra Code

Sir Ralph is offline Sir Ralph
Emperor
Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:37
  Old Post 19-08-2005 17:52
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I am glad you all like it.

I don't know for sure, if it is true, but I suspect it is. I am a dedicated EQ2 player for 9 months and as such I can not find any flaw in his story (except for the constant typo in "haulasian mauler"). Also, I remember this update he mentioned very well, and that I wondered why the hell they made house pets no-trade and no-destroy all of a sudden.

DrSpike is offline DrSpike
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time: 05:37
  Old Post 19-08-2005 22:23
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Then it sounds genuine.

* DrSpike goes off to look for dupes.

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