14-08-2005 00:37									#31
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I just emailed the White HOuse and called them all idiots.

	14-08-2005 00:41									#32
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quote: If Iraq became a state it could oppose Iran. Shi'ites in Iran want the turmoil.

Because if Shi'ites are in power in Iraq, they would... oppose other Shi'ites in Iran how? I don't think Iraqis are going to wage war anytime soon.

	14-08-2005 00:41									#33
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quote: Originally posted by shawnmmcc Uh, guys, before I go to bed. The Shia have their own militias, that have been stepping up activity after the various massacres of fighting age Shia males in mixed areas by Sunni insurgents. Maybe, just maybe, Iran is helping arm them in the hope that once the US pulls out that a Civil War will create another Shia theocracy. Anotherwise, the Iranians are helping creating their own Ulster paras(militaries), to borrow from another conflict, which will be able to match the Sunnis atrocity for atrocity. Yippee, you too can have four centuries of religious conflict and atrocities.

That possibly could be occuring... though then Iran isn't supporting the insurgents, are they? They are supporting the guys being picked on by the insurgents.

	14-08-2005 00:47									#34
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I want to hear what Ramo has to say about this. He know about all the alliances and who is doing what on the ground.

	14-08-2005 00:49									#35
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Iran is pretty tough. I mean, the US is still going to win, but it'll be a bitter, bloody slog.

	14-08-2005 00:56									#36
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The only thing Bush can do to them is bomb them. We don't have the manpower for anything else.

	14-08-2005 01:05									#37
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You people are amusing. Letting your paranoia run wil rather than looking at realistic options.

	14-08-2005 01:25									#38
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Iran is different real estate than Iraq. And as anyone will tell you, real estate is all about location, location, location. Iraq has historically always been easy to invade. This is why it did not turn into another vietnam - there are no mountains or jungles really to hide in. However, Iran presents a drastically different terrain.

Plus, Iran doesn't have that much oil, does it? I doubt we'll go in.

	14-08-2005 01:34									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker I just emailed the White HOuse and called them all idiots.

Signature material!

	14-08-2005 01:36									#40
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Draft...!!!Draft...!!!

	14-08-2005 01:41									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman Iran is pretty tough. I mean, the US is still going to win, but it'll be a bitter, bloody slog.

They haven't won in Afghanistan or Iraq yet. Tell me how they will win in Iran and how many decades it will take?

	14-08-2005 01:50									#42
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I hope we have a war with Iran. Nothing is good on TV anymore. with all these damn reality shows.

	14-08-2005 01:52									#43
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I meant the initial invasion. The subsequent guerilla campaign would probably continue indefinitely.

	14-08-2005 01:52									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie They haven't won in Afghanistan or Iraq yet. Tell me how they will win in Iran and how many decades it will take?

Sure we have. Toppling goverments is easy. It's building new goverments that's impossible for us to do.

	14-08-2005 01:56									#45
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell When are we going to get a President that doesn't have a major boner for war?

We just had one in the 90's. He had a boner for fat chicks.

	14-08-2005 01:57									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I seem to remember your ilk proclaiming that the Iraqis would welcome us with open arms as liberators and that resistance would be minimal and short. You know very little about the Iranians and what they're attitudes would be towards a U.S. invasion. Considering the horrible anti-American sentiment our past meddling conjured up there, any attempt at aggression will be met by very fierce resistance. And Iran is considerably larger than Iraq.

good point. I don't think they have forgotton us shooting down one of their planes in the 80's.

	14-08-2005 02:04									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Dis Sure we have. Toppling goverments is easy. It's building new goverments that's impossible for us to do.

Building new (puppet) governments is easy too. The hard part is to beat the rebels, which could take decades. But you can't truly claim victory until you have.

	14-08-2005 02:05									#48
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DD is right.

Not even this Administration is foolish enough to go charging into another war given our current commitments in Afghanistan and Iraq. We simply do not have the manpower (or international support) to attempt a similar invasion of Iran.

I'm not entirely sure just how this situation will be handled, but you can bet the farm that it'll be different than the way we are (man)handling Iraq.

	14-08-2005 02:09									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Dis We just had one in the 90's. He had a boner for fat chicks.

He had a hard-on for bombing campaigns too. He bombed Serbia and Iraq without hesitation and attacked some other places as well ( Sudan, Aftghanistan etc.) He was only afraid of putting troops on the ground, thus he pulled out of Somalia, the country that really needed troops on the ground.

	14-08-2005 02:17									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Dis good point. I don't think they have forgotton us shooting down one of their planes in the 80's.

Yeah, I remember that catastrophy and the pictures of innocent civilians floating upside down in the Persian gulf. Did the American ship captain even got punished? I would assume at least he didn't gain any further rank in his career, but you never know. There was a lot of fuzz about the Russians shooting down a jumbo from Korea, but then the yanks made the same idiotic mistake and used the excuse "How could we know they were not hostile?"

	14-08-2005 02:21									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie Yeah, I remember that catastrophy and the pictures of innocent civilians floating upside down in the Persian gulf. Did the American ship captain even got punished? I would assume at least he didn't gain any further rank in his career, but you never know. There was a lot of fuzz about the Russians shooting down a jumbo from Korea, but then the yanks made the same idiotic mistake and used the excuse "How could we know they were not hostile?"

then you aren't going to like what I've seen on Wikipedia. He got an award for shooting down an airliner. though it doesn't mention if he rose in rank after that. I doubt he made captain (the actual rank not the title as captain of the ship) or admiral.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

	14-08-2005 03:15									#52
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As the American ship was not invited to the Persian Gulf by anyone, why would it be acceptable for it to defend itself against a percieved (non-existing) threath?

"Yeah, I was walking there, a drunk white guy, 4 in the morning in downtown Harlem, and a black guy was closing in on me, so I pulled a gun and killed him. Did I do anything wrong? "

That's the American way. Be on the wrong spot in the wrong time and use that as an excuse to commit an unexcusable crime.

	14-08-2005 03:23									#53
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Personally I see no pretext for the US to use any type of force against Iran. The way to handle Iran's transgretions of the NPT treaty is by snactions from the UN, thought Iran's position and status in the oil trade means real sanctions are basically off the books. Also, while most states certainly would not support Iran getting nukes, the US and European position is not very popular out there either-essentially, realizing that anyone with a peaceful nuclear program will eventually have what they need to make a nuclear weapon, the US and Europe are trying to curtail the rights of other states when it comes to nuclear power. This self-centered position of increasing the nuclear monopoly is obviously not popular, and I don't think sustainable either.

As for the weapons coming into Iraq. I can see plenty of reasons why the Iranians would pass along weapons to anti-american forces, I mean, why not? Sunni control of Iraq is no longer realistic. The bigger issue would be the disintegration of Iraq0while having a Shiite state next door would be great, having a free Kurdish state would be a problem for Iran, though not as much of a problem as for Turkey.

	14-08-2005 03:28									#54
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quote: As the American ship was not invited to the Persian Gulf by anyone, why would it be acceptable for it to defend itself against a percieved (non-existing) threath?

You don't have to be invited into Intl. borders, and IIRC, there are Intl. waters in the persian gulf.

	14-08-2005 03:34									#55
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Might the weapons actually have come from some Al-Qaeda group in Pakistan or central Asia? Shipping across iran would be logical.

	14-08-2005 03:36									#56
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You have to sail through very narrow straits to get into the Persian Gulf. That means you are not randomly passing by, you are actively there to harass someone. If your only purpose to be there at all is to harass someone, why would it be acceptable to kill innocent civilians to defend yourself against a percieved threath?

	14-08-2005 03:44									#57
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quote: You have to sail through very narrow straits to get into the Persian Gulf. That means you are not randomly passing by, you are actively there to harass someone. If your only purpose to be there at all is to harass someone, why would it be acceptable to kill innocent civilians to defend yourself against a percieved threath?

Why to harass? I don't think that harassing anyone is high on the US' list of interests in the Persian Gulf. The main, completely dominant reason the US Navy is in the Persian Gulf is to secure the flow of strategic energy resources such as oil and gas from it.

	14-08-2005 03:48									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Az quote: You have to sail through very narrow straits to get into the Persian Gulf. That means you are not randomly passing by, you are actively there to harass someone. If your only purpose to be there at all is to harass someone, why would it be acceptable to kill innocent civilians to defend yourself against a percieved threath? Why to harass? I don't think that harassing anyone is high on the US' list of interests in the Persian Gulf. The main, completely dominant reason the US Navy is in the Persian Gulf is to secure the flow of strategic energy resources such as oil and gas from it.

It wasn't an oil tanker that shot down the civilian airliner, was it?

	14-08-2005 04:13									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie Yeah, I remember that catastrophy and the pictures of innocent civilians floating upside down in the Persian gulf. Did the American ship captain even got punished? I would assume at least he didn't gain any further rank in his career, but you never know. There was a lot of fuzz about the Russians shooting down a jumbo from Korea, but then the yanks made the same idiotic mistake and used the excuse "How could we know they were not hostile?"

Not a 100% certain if it's the same, is this the one leading up to Lockerby? If so, then he a medal when he got home.


EDIT: hadn't read page two before posting.

	14-08-2005 09:00									#60
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You people are amusing. Letting your paranoia run wil rather than looking at realistic options.

This EXACT same series of events happened in the lead up to invading Iraq. The White House sent their people around the world on this diplomatic mission going around telling everyone how they had no plans to invade and that, "all options are on the table."

At one point, Rice even said they had no plans to invade Iraq. The exact same words were even used, "all options are on the table."

That tells me they're ready to do it.

There was an insider floating a rumor that the planned attack was to come in the summer of 2005. Coincidence?

With the sheer incompetence of these morons, I don't trust them with anything.