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SlowThinker
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homeless, Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2000
time: 06:37
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I am an absolute total beginner, just tried several turns. I would like to play, but I know nothing about the game mechanics and formulas, and so I can't start to play - I don't know what to do, I have no base for my decisions.
I found the excellent Locotus' explanation about use of squares around cities:
about that green bar.........
Locutus mentions several constants, for example ...
quote:
Originally posted by Locutus
Over this you have to apply the government food coefficient though, which in this case - in 4000 BC in Tyranny - is 0.85. |
quote:
To get the population growth from this, you need to first take into account the Crime. By default this is 25% |
etc.
Of course there is many more important constants, like "costs" of units, amount of PW needed for tile improvements, formula for rushbuying...
Where do you get these constants? Can I find any overview?
Or ... it looks the constants depend on mods - so I must go in .txt files?
Use of the Commerce
Another point is that Locutus' explanations are clear for food and production, but it can't be applied to the commerce. For example if you open the Empire Manager in detailed mode, the Collected Food and Collected production is equal to the sum of the entries below (for example Collected Food = Crime + Consumed + Stored).
But this doesn't work with the Commerce! Although the crime is lower than in case of Food and Production, a part of Commerce is lost and there is no explanation why.
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SlowThinker
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homeless, Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2000
time: 06:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin Gühmann
For commerce first it is collected from the field. From that raw amount, buildings are supported and wages are paid, and that is splitted accoring to the science tax into commerce and science. |
Thx, I think I understand. I supposed the crime is abduced first and so it is applied first but this not true: The crime is applied after all modifiers and also after Wages are deducted (contrary to food rations that are reduced by crime).
Also I didn't know the crime doesn't apply to science.
Crime
quote:
Originally posted by Locutus
To get the population growth from this, you need to first take into account the Crime. By default this is 25%, so we substract that from our food supply and get 0.75 * 41 = 31 food. |
25%? I searched all the file for 'crime' but found no a general value for Crime...?? I see only CrimeCoef in govern.txt.
So I made a test: I edited the govern.txt and created a "base government":
FoodCoef 1
ProductionCoef 1
KnowledgeCoef 1
GoldCoef 1
MaxScienceRate 1
CrimeCoef 1
CrimeOffset 95
Then I played with the cheat mode (changed terrain and city size) and changed the workday and got these values for production:
production 17 / crime 3, 18/4, 46/8, 56/10, 62/11, 65/12, 75/13, 75/15, 79/14, 85/17, 88/15, 91/18, 92/16, 102/20, 103/21, 105/18, 106/21, 115/23, 120/24, 121/21
First I thought the crime is 1/6 for the food, 1/5 for the production, 1/6 for the gold (and 0 for science), but the values 105/18 and 121/21 doesn't correspond...
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SlowThinker
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homeless, Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2000
time: 06:37
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Pls don't overlook my 2nd post about the combat math.
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SlowThinker
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homeless, Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2000
time: 06:37
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Maybe I found what is the problem with the crime - the crime is affected also by happiness, but the effect of happines doesn't refresh automately, so you must move the slider so that it gets rereshed.
For example if you change happiness by changing food rations then you don't see a correct crime of gold until you move the wages slider.
BTW ... the city window shows only the gross values of food/prod/commerce ... is there any way how to find out the net values? Except you have only one city and look the City Manager?
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SlowThinker
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homeless, Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2000
time: 06:37
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I am sorry I am filling the forum by such a trash.
I have understood the formula for the Crime, but I suppose it is well known:
Crime (%) = CrimeCoef * (CrimeOffset - Happiness)
An example: the usual CrimeOffset is 95, under Tyranny the CrimeCoef is 1.5, so
with Happiness 95 the Crime is 0%,
with Happiness 75 the Crime is 1.5*20%=30% etc.
The crime level is equal for all Food/Production/Science/Gold but the value in the Commerce column of the Empire Manager shows crime of Gold only (the crime for Science is not shown).
Am I correct?
BTW it appears there is some limit of 78 for the Happiness - what's that?
Edit: added the CrimeCoef
Last edited by SlowThinker on 14-08-2005 at 20:42
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Maquiladora
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Hi SlowThinker,
heres an excel spreadsheet that should show the basics of combat.
 Attachment: ctp2_combat_sim_final_1.xls
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).
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SlowThinker
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homeless, Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2000
time: 06:37
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Maquiladora, thx very much.
But the spreadsheet looks suspicious:
The first column (situation A):
1.
Attacker's armour, hitpoints, defence capacity - shouldn't these values be Defender's?
2.
'Total Attack for Attacking Unit' is never used, I suppose it should be used in 'Chance of Attacker Hitting'? (C14 in place of C8)
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Martin Gühmann
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Berlin, Germany
Mar 2001
time: 06:37
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quote:
Originally posted by SlowThinker
I have understood the formula for the Crime, but I suppose it is well known:
Crime (%) = CrimeCoef * (CrimeOffset - Happiness)
An example: the usual CrimeOffset is 95, under Tyranny the CrimeCoef is 1.5, so
with Happiness 95 the Crime is 0%,
with Happiness 75 the Crime is 1.5*20%=30% etc.
The crime level is equal for all Food/Production/Science/Gold but the value in the Commerce column of the Empire Manager shows crime of Gold only (the crime for Science is not shown).
Am I correct? |
The building and wonder modifers are missing, but otherwise the formular is correct.
quote:
Originally posted by SlowThinker
BTW it appears there is some limit of 78 for the Happiness - what's that? |
What do you mean by some limit of 78 for the happiness?
quote:
Originally posted by SlowThinker
Maybe I found what is the problem with the crime - the crime is affected also by happiness, but the effect of happines doesn't refresh automately, so you must move the slider so that it gets rereshed.
For example if you change happiness by changing food rations then you don't see a correct crime of gold until you move the wages slider. |
Well that is true for the display of these values in this manager, at least in the executables relased by Activision. However this screen doesn't calculate the values that matter.
quote:
Originally posted by SlowThinker
BTW ... the city window shows only the gross values of food/prod/commerce ... is there any way how to find out the net values? Except you have only one city and look the City Manager? |
Actual for gold you see the net value, afterwards you have collected everything payed upkeep and wages, splitted commerce into science and gold, processed the gold, added meanwhile the values from speacilists and trade routes and capitalization and finally subtraced crime loss and conversion loss.
-Martin
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SlowThinker
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homeless, Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2000
time: 06:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin Gühmann
The building and wonder modifers are missing, but otherwise the formular is correct. |
What did I overlook in the Apolyton documentation and/or the .txt files? Where is this formula (and other similar formulas) published?
quote:
What do you mean by some limit of 78 for the happiness? |
When I started my first game (in Tyrrany) I was unable to set the Empire happiness over 78 (using the sliders of Wages, Rations and Workday).
But now (I have 3 cities now) I can't get over 77.
quote:
Well that is true for the display of these values in this manager, at least in the executables relased by Activision. However this screen doesn't calculate the values that matter. |
The sentence in italics - what did you want to say?
quote:
Actual for gold you see the net value, afterwards you have collected everything payed upkeep and wages, splitted commerce into science and gold, processed the gold, added meanwhile the values from speacilists and trade routes and capitalization and finally subtraced crime loss and conversion loss. |
The science appears to work in a similar fashion... am I correct?
quote:
Originally posted by Maquiladora
2. I think this is because veteran effect didnt work in 1.1 (fixed in the sourcecode). |
Do you mean the sourcecode project? Do the mods apply the veteran status?
Is the formula for attack tried-and-true? Because this formula was supposed to work with Civ2 and later it was proved the formula is more complicated.
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Maquiladora
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quote:
Originally posted by SlowThinker
Do you mean the sourcecode project? Do the mods apply the veteran status? |
Yes, but im not sure what the final fix was, I wanted +50% for attack and defence for veterans, but the original manual says only "a bonus to attack rating", so i think that was the final fix.
No, i dont think its possible to fix with SLIC in a mod.
quote:
Is the formula for attack tried-and-true? Because this formula was supposed to work with Civ2 and later it was proved the formula is more complicated. |
It was done quite a while ago, before the sourcecode, in just a couple of days, "out of interest" kind of thing.
It could be found out for sure in the sourcecode, not by me though.
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Maquiladora
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin Gühmann
Actually our startegy is it to exploit our people, at least in the standart game this seems to be the right strategy. |
I think hes talking about right at the start. I increase wages to maximum because you lose hardly any science (if any at all), but lower crime for faster settlers.
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SlowThinker
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homeless, Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2000
time: 06:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin Gühmann
Limit? There is no limit, the city has a base happiness and then all the modifers that add and reduce happiness come into play. |
I mean a limit of the Empire Happiness.
This is an example of my starting game (Tyrany):
1st picture:
Rations, Workday and Wages are set to expected values. The Empire Happines (next EH) is 76.
(I supposed it would be rather 75 because of
BASE_CONTENTMENT 75 # starting happiness
but maybe it is BASE_CONTENTMENT + 1 ?)
If I drag any slider to higher exploitation then the EH drops to 75, 74, 73 etc. (it corresponds to NegativeRationsCoef=1, NegativeWorkdayCoef=1, PositiveWagesCoef=1)
2nd picture:
If I drag any slider to lower exploitation then the EH increases to 78 (by +2), although the PositiveXXXCoeficients are again 1.
3rd picture:
If I drag any slider to lower exploitation again then the EH doesn't increase anymore, it stays 78. This is the limit I mentioned.
With 2 cities the "base happiness" drops from 76 to 75 and it works a similar way: first +2 to 77, then no more increment.
With 8 cities the "base happiness" drops from 75 to 74 and the limit of EH is 76.
 Attachment: empiremanager 1city.jpg
This has been downloaded 47 time(s).
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Martin Gühmann
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Berlin, Germany
Mar 2001
time: 06:37
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quote:
Originally posted by SlowThinker
I mean a limit of the Empire Happiness.
This is an example of my starting game (Tyrany):
1st picture:
Rations, Workday and Wages are set to expected values. The Empire Happines (next EH) is 76.
(I supposed it would be rather 75 because of
BASE_CONTENTMENT 75 # starting happiness
but maybe it is BASE_CONTENTMENT + 1 ?)
If I drag any slider to higher exploitation then the EH drops to 75, 74, 73 etc. (it corresponds to NegativeRationsCoef=1, NegativeWorkdayCoef=1, PositiveWagesCoef=1)
2nd picture:
If I drag any slider to lower exploitation then the EH increases to 78 (by +2), although the PositiveXXXCoeficients are again 1.
3rd picture:
If I drag any slider to lower exploitation again then the EH doesn't increase anymore, it stays 78. This is the limit I mentioned.
With 2 cities the "base happiness" drops from 76 to 75 and it works a similar way: first +2 to 77, then no more increment.
With 8 cities the "base happiness" drops from 75 to 74 and the limit of EH is 76. |
And now what's your problem? Of course if you raise the exploitation your happiness drops, and if you lower explotation it increases. And of course with the sliders you have only a limited effect, but you can build happiness improvements happiness wonders, for instance the Ramajana gives you +3 happiness in each of your cities, and you can engage entertainers. Each entertainer gives you a +2 happiness. So if you have size 60 cities you can turn in each city 30 workers into entertainers, that gives you a happiness bonus of +60 and then you average happiness will also increase by +60 if you do it in all of your cities. But of course doing this doesn't give you any gain, espeacilly if you build some crime reducing buildings.
-Martin
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Maquiladora
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quote:
Originally posted by SlowThinker
You want to say that science is very important (in comparison to gold)? But IMO the growth (production + food) is more important. With wages set to maximum you lose some science but get much of growth. |
I agree. You dont actually have to start decreasing wages until commerce (from the land), and a government with high science tax, becomes more effective than using scientists specialists.
Anyway what youre mentioning has all been identified and fixed in one mod or another, which will make its way to the sourcecode eventually too.
Things like increasing negative happiness for slider movement and increasing the need for gold, both of which are done in Ages of Man.
Science costs are also extremely high in AoM, so a one notch decrease in wages could mean 20 turns to next advance, even early in the game. You can grow and build a lot but youll be 100 or 200 turns behind in science if you neglect it too long.
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SlowThinker
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homeless, Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2000
time: 06:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin Gühmann
And now what's your problem? |
My problem is I almost understand how the happiness works...
There is Empire Happiness (EH) that is shown on the empire manager and depends on sliders of Rations, Workday and Wages. EH serves as a base happiness for cities: increases and decreases are shown for each city under the Status tab.
Am I right?
...but what I don't understand is how exactly is defined the EH:
It looks there is some limit but I don't know how it is derived. i.e. which constant affects it. Why just city sizes 2 and 8 lower this limit? Does this limit depend on other things (government)?
Why the hell the EH increases by +2 although the PositiveXXXCoeficients are 1?
quote:
So if you have size 60 cities you can turn in each city 30 workers into entertainers, that gives you a happiness bonus of +60 and then you average happiness will also increase by +60 if you do it in all of your cities. But of course doing this doesn't give you any gain, espeacilly if you build some crime reducing buildings. |
When going through the .txt files I was curious what is this:
VERY_HAPPY_THRESHOLD 85 # threshold at which a city is considered "very happy"
Does it cause any effect?
Last edited by SlowThinker on 18-08-2005 at 01:47
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SlowThinker
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homeless, Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2000
time: 06:37
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quote:
Originally posted by child of Thor
Its this 'fog of watthehellishappening' that i like in the CTP games |
 I couldn't like a game if I didn't know what happens.
quote:
Compared to civ where you can count your sheaths of wheat etc, CTP is weird and unfathomable. |
It is not so bad.
Sheats of wheat (food production) can be derived from growth, values of gold and science in the city window are net values, so it looks only the city production is hidden (and I dislike this fact).
Cumulated food is represented by population, cumulated gold and science is published too, but cumulated shields are unclear again.  So I made a spreadsheet that computes shields from the rushbuy cost. It is attached in the next post.
Rushbuys
I used the spreadsheet for understanding how the rushbuy cost is derived. It looks the values XXXRushModifier in govern.txt (UnitRushModifier, BuildingRushModifier, WonderRushModifier, EndGameRushModifier) are valid only for 0 shields remaining (and so are only theoretical). If you have no shield cumulated then the cost is doubled.
An example:
You want to rushbuy a settler (it costs 740 shields) under Monarchy, the UnitRushModifier for monarchy is 4. So for example
if you need to buy full cost (740) you pay 4*740*2 gold
if you need to buy 3/4 of cost (555) you pay 4*555*1.75 gold
if you need to buy 1/2 of cost (370) you pay 4*370*1.5 gold
if you need to buy 1/10 of cost (74) you pay 4*74*1.1 gold
The formula:
RushbuyCost = (RemainingShieldCost / FullShieldCost +1) * XXXRushModifier * RemainingShieldCost
(I tested it with Settlers only)
Edit: In the city where you rushbuy you lose production of that turn. (therefore you may want to switch to 100% Public Works. Unfortunately it means an aditional micromanagement  )
Last edited by SlowThinker on 18-08-2005 at 02:03
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SlowThinker
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homeless, Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2000
time: 06:37
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the spreadsheet that computes shields from the rushbuy cost
Attachment: shields remaining.xls
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).
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Apolyton Time is 00:37. |
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13-08-2005 23:18
I thought happiness improvements icrease happiness rather than allow to get over some limit...
scnr
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