16-08-2005 06:32									#61
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Actually, from what I understand, burning alive is actually mostly painless. The nerve endings are destroyed by the fire fairly quickly, and you don't feel anything after that.

I've tended to burn victims and let me tell you it most certainly is not painless. If you burn the nerve endings the nerve shaft itself may still send signals to the spinal cord, furthermore you can have pain from the less thoroughly burned areas adjacent to the deep burn and you may even have pain signals from deper nerves.

	16-08-2005 06:46									#62
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quote: Actually, from what I understand, burning alive is actually mostly painless. The nerve endings are destroyed by the fire fairly quickly, and you don't feel anything after that.

I think it would be more painful to be microwaved, though.

	16-08-2005 20:57									#63
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Weird accident. Any news about the causes?

	16-08-2005 21:23									#64
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http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europ...=cnn_topstories

quote: ATHENS, Greece -- An autopsy on the body of the co-pilot of a Cyprus airliner that crashed killing all 121 on board shows he was alive when the plane went down, a private Greek television channel has reported. Coroners were also on Tuesday carrying out autopsies on 26 bodies that had been identified by relatives. The Helios Boeing 737 had been heading from Larnaca to Athens, and had been due to fly on to Prague. The Helios Airways plane crashed into a mountain near Athens killing all 121 people aboard Sunday. Examinations of 20 bodies, including that of a flight attendant, have already indicated they were alive when the plane crashed, an Athens coroner said. Nikos Kalogrias, one of seven coroners, said the 20 victims' hearts and lungs were working at the time of the crash. "The attendant was alive and died of injuries" sustained in the crash, he told The Associated Press.

Suspicious

	16-08-2005 21:35									#65
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****

so many crashes lately

toronto, estonia, greece, venezuela, that spanish chopper in afghanistan

A guy could grow paranoid from less

	16-08-2005 21:36									#66
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Gangerolf sighting!

	16-08-2005 21:47									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Gangerolf sighting!

	16-08-2005 23:22									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo carbon monoxide gives a characteristic cherry-red blush to the skin. Carbon dioxide does nothing of the sort.

http://www.emedicinehealth.com/articles/26419-2.asp

	16-08-2005 23:23									#71
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This is really weird. What happened to the claim that the bodies were frozen if they were still alive?

What the **** is up with this?

	16-08-2005 23:27									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie What you say might be true, I don't know, but you don't last many minutes wearing shorts and T-shirt in -50 C either. And the passengers were reported to wear oxygen masks, preventing hypoxia. According to what I read, oxygen mask systems are very reliable and rarely malfunction.

I have experience with -40C temperatures. An average healthy person would easily last a half hour in those temperatures with no protective clothing. Plus the passengers would almost certainly grab extra tshirts etc. from carry-on baggage, and huddle together for warmth.

There's no reason cold should have killed them. Something had to incapacitate the pilot, copilot (and flight engineer) quickly, else they would have descended.

Nothing about this story makes any sense, given the information that the people were still alive at the time of the crash.

	16-08-2005 23:36									#73
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse This is really weird. What happened to the claim that the bodies were frozen if they were still alive? What the **** is up with this?

It's part of some inscrutable tradition of restricting information flow from authorities. It's not just the Greeks, but they are awfully good at it.

There's also the adamant refusal to mention even the possibility of the T-word being involved that has me puzzled.

	16-08-2005 23:42									#74
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Terrorism starts to make sense now.

a) No communication from plane indicating what was wrong (after initial a/c malfunction)

b) No attempt to descend to reasonable altitude, despite the fact that evidence indicates whatever occured on the plane was survivable

c) A slumped-over pilot in the cockpit with two unknown persons attempting to control the plane

Maybe somebody got a gun on board, shots were fired, the plane depressurised and the hijackers then attempted to keep the plane flying to whatever destination they wanted?

I don't know. The information doesn't make any sense as it stands now.

	17-08-2005 00:51									#75
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I have experience with -40C temperatures. An average healthy person would easily last a half hour in those temperatures with no protective clothing. Plus the passengers would almost certainly grab extra tshirts etc. from carry-on baggage, and huddle together for warmth. There's no reason cold should have killed them. Something had to incapacitate the pilot, copilot (and flight engineer) quickly, else they would have descended. Nothing about this story makes any sense, given the information that the people were still alive at the time of the crash.

they did descend.

	17-08-2005 00:57									#76
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What was the exact cause of death for passengers for the Learjet that had the depressurization a couple years ago?

quote: Examinations of 20 bodies, including that of a flight attendant, have already indicated they were alive when the plane crashed, an Athens coroner said.

Alive, yes. Conscious?

	17-08-2005 01:04									#77
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If shots were fired the voice recorder box would pick that up. They were probably all unconscious indeed.

	17-08-2005 01:07									#78
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell What was the exact cause of death for passengers for the Learjet that had the depressurization a couple years ago? Alive, yes. Conscious?

Yes, but the question is what mishap at 10000 metres leaves you unconscious but not dead?

	17-08-2005 01:09									#79
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell What was the exact cause of death for passengers for the Learjet that had the depressurization a couple years ago?

Hypoxia.

Low pressure actually sucks oxygen out of your bloodstream through the lungs, killing you quicker than a simple drowning would.

	17-08-2005 01:14									#80
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Hmmm.

Apparently 10000m is just about right to quickly lose consciousness from hypoxia but not die for an hour or two.

http://www.ciwec-clinic.com/altitude/alti2.html

quote: Human bodies have built-in adjustment mechanisms that can optimize performance at higher altitudes. This process is known as acclimatization. The power of acclimatization can be demonstrated by the following example. If a person were transported suddenly to the summit of Mt. Everest (29,128 feet; 8848 meters), the person would lose consciousness in a few minutes, and most likely die within an hour or two due to acute hypoxia. However, over 60 people have climbed to the summit of Mt. Everest without using supplemental oxygen after acclimatizing for many weeks. This fact demonstrates how profound the process of acclimatization can be.

	17-08-2005 01:19									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf If shots were fired the voice recorder box would pick that up. They were probably all unconscious indeed.

The voice recorder hasn't been analyzed yet. Or if it has, the results haven't been released to the public. They could cover this up for a while if they wanted.

I'm very curious about this. It's like a mystery story. I'll be following the details of this crash for a while.

Not that I'm glad I'm crashed. But not all crashes are alike. Another plane just crashed in S. America. But that was the failure of 2 engines. Nothing interesting there . This crash is more interesting.

	17-08-2005 01:23									#82
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and is suicide common among greeks?

I'm reminded of the Japanese airliner crash where the vertical stabilizer on a passenger jet came off.

Many Japanese killed themselves after the airline was found at fault. It seems they knew about a whistling problem of the tail fin for a while, and no one did anything about it.

And in this case this plane has had problems related to the cabin pressure control. Will the mechanics and engineers kill themselves over it?

	17-08-2005 02:55									#83
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http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europ...rash/index.html

this talks a little about the "people trying to fly the plane". It has been suggested that it was a flight attendent, and they did find a flight attendant among the wreckage of the cockpit.

	17-08-2005 06:38									#84
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse http://www.emedicinehealth.com/articles/26419-2.asp

The telltale cherry red flushing only occurs as a result of the presence of carboxyhemoglobin in the victim from exposure to carbon monoxide. Unusually pronounced (but not cherry red) flushing may also be observed in cyanide poisoning and a few other types of poisoning but not carbon dioxide. Instead, more generic flushing may be observed in situations in which hypoxia has not occured but elevated CO2 are present. This flushing is unrelated to carboxyhemoglobin from CO and tends to not be very pronounced and only occurs if O2 levels remain adequate in the presence of the elevated CO2. In fact flushing observed in cases of CO2 poisoning is not a result of the CO2 but rather the result of compensatory mechanisms reflecting the bodies efforts to eliminate more CO2 and these mechanisms will not give a flushed appearance once hypoxia sets in.

So, if ventilation is poor O2 levels often fall enough that such flushing is not apparent in CO2 poisoning and it becomes totally masked by the resulting cyanotic condition.

Bottom line, carbon monoxide poisoning perfectly masks hypoxia so no cyanosis is evident but CO2 buildup doesn't block the appearance of cyanosis at all. We would only expect the passengers to have a flushed appearance if O2 hypoxia did not occur or if CO poisoning were suspected. If a CO2 buildup is accompanied by hypoxia the cyanotic skin may be evident just as the witnesses in this case observed.

	23-08-2005 00:37									#85
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http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europ...yday/index.html

it appears the plane ran out of fuel.

	23-08-2005 01:11									#86
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quote: it appears the plane ran out of fuel.

Yeah, ghost planes that fly on autopilot eventually do that. But what made it become a ghost plane?

	23-08-2005 01:29									#87
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we already know that. depressurization. .

The real mystery is why the plane depressurized, and the pilots weren't able to do anything about it.

	23-08-2005 01:36									#88
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They haven't found the body of the Chief pilot. Perhaps he opened a hatch and parachuted, explaining it all?

	23-08-2005 01:41									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie They haven't found the body of the Chief pilot. Perhaps he opened a hatch and parachuted, explaining it all?

maybe.