15-08-2005 22:54									#31
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60 years after its defeat, Japan still struggles with responsibility

International Herald Tribune

...
To outsiders, the question of Japanese war responsibility might appear simple. After all, it was Japan that invaded China, erected a puppet state in Manchuria in 1932, plundered Nanjing five years later, and sprung its bombers and torpedo planes on a sleeping Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7, 1941.

In Japan, however, the issue has never been a simple one. For decades, a bitter fight raged between leftists, who viewed the war as an evil enterprise, and rightists, who saw it as a noble if mismanaged cause.
...

In recent years, public opinion seems to be creeping toward the right. While most Japanese still seem to see World War II - known here as the Pacific War - as a colossal mistake, there is also a growing movement to find reasons to be proud of the war. A slew of movies, novels and comics have appeared extolling the bravery of Japanese soldiers and sailors. Some junior high schools
now use textbooks that brush over Japanese atrocities, but credit the war with ending Western colonial domination in Asia.

...

"The conservatives are trying to wipe out antiwar sentiment so Japan can have a stronger military," said John Dower, a historian who wrote the Pulitzer Prize-winning book "Embracing Defeat," published by W. W. Norton and Company, about the war and its aftermath in Japan. "There is a culture war, and the right wing is winning."

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/08...ws/VJ-Japan.php

	15-08-2005 22:57									#32
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At the moment I'm reading "Forgotten Armies: Britain's Asian Empire and the War with Japan" by Christopher Bayly and Tim Harper. An excellent look at how the war affected people in the area between India and Singapore. If you're interested in history, this is a definitely a book to read.

	15-08-2005 23:08									#33
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can we nuke japan again for old time's sake?

	16-08-2005 00:35									#34
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It's really depressing to see Asians squabbling like, well, Europeans.

	16-08-2005 02:27									#35
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At least this is in debate in Japan. Creationism is still in debate in America. This is the way of freedom. Now imagine if the ruling party tried to repress the whole thing to point of arresting people who held any evidence to the contrary. That would be something to get in an uproar about.

	16-08-2005 22:01									#36
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It also depends on the cause being served, and the other actions of those involved. Any losing battle holding off the invading empire tends to get seen as heroic, i.e Thermopylae.

Now you can be serving an evil cause - crushing the Zulu in their own territory to further British colonialism - yet the regular soldiers engage in simple warfare with the other sides combatants. Still tends to go down in history as heroic.

Finally there are things like Custer. While many apologists still claim him as heroic, his prior record of exterminating woman and children sort of makes the Lakota slaughter of his unit more payback then heroism. Add in his own ego and political motivation, and it gets tarnished heavily.

Note however, that all of this gets trumped by who gets to write the histories. Losers tend to be fighting futile resistance. Winners fight heroic battles. It's all in the context.

	16-08-2005 22:10									#37
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Here's a great picture that was in my paper yesterday. The accompanying text reads:

"War Veteran Pat Lee wearing his helmet and medals is taking part in the Pacific Victory Parade in Sydney. Australian troops were the first to defeat Japanese land forces in the battle of Milne Bay on Papua New Guinea, where Lee served as a flight mechanic during the war."

Attachment: ikke-navngivet.jpg
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	16-08-2005 22:21									#38
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I will always be greatful for this day as my father was scheduled for the first wave in the invasion of Japan. Whatever problems the bomb may have caused, I look at it as the reason for my very existence.

	16-08-2005 22:21									#39
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The first to defeat the Japanese in a land battle were the Soviets.

	16-08-2005 22:31									#40
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Last edited by Kuciwalker on 16-08-2005 at 22:36

	16-08-2005 22:35									#41
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Halhin_Gol

	16-08-2005 23:16									#42
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO I will always be greatful for this day as my father was scheduled for the first wave in the invasion of Japan. Whatever problems the bomb may have caused, I look at it as the reason for my very existence.

damn, now I'm thinking it wasn't such a good idea to nuke them

	17-08-2005 02:49									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Sava damn, now I'm thinking it wasn't such a good idea to nuke them

Just so PLATO woulden't of been born? Sava, thats uncalled for.

	17-08-2005 02:52									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Sava damn, now I'm thinking it wasn't such a good idea to nuke them

Yes... that's over the line... one more crack like that and you are toast!

	17-08-2005 03:24									#45
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http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/16/i...ia/16japan.html

quote: Koizumi Apologizes for War; Embraces China and South Korea By NORIMITSU ONISHI Published: August 16, 2005 TOKYO, Aug. 15 - Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi observed the 60th anniversary of Japan's defeat in World War II on Monday by apologizing for the country's past militarism in Asia and pledging to uphold its postwar pacifism. In a speech at a government-sponsored memorial service at the Nippon Budokan hall here, Mr. Koizumi also reached out directly to China and South Korea by saying that the three nations should work together "in maintaining peace and aiming at development in the region." Mr. Koizumi joined Emperor Akihito, who said he hoped that "the horrors of war will never be repeated," in bowing before an altar of chrysanthemums. Exactly sixty years ago, the emperor's father, Emperor Hirohito, spoke directly to the Japanese people for the first time when he announced Japan's surrender over the radio, saying they should "bear the unbearable and endure the unendurable." In the first apology delivered on Aug. 15 by a prime minister since the 50th anniversary of the war's end, Mr. Koizumi said: "Our country has caused tremendous damage and pain to the peoples of many countries, especially Asian countries, through colonial rule and invasion. Humbly acknowledging such facts of history, I once again reflect most deeply and offer apologies from my heart." He added, "I would like to forge a future-oriented relationship of cooperation based on mutual understanding and confidence with Asian countries by squarely facing up to the past and correctly understanding history." Mr. Koizumi's words were received skeptically in the region, especially in China and the Korean peninsula. In recent months, Japan's relations with its Asian neighbors have deteriorated sharply over disagreements over history, including Japan's adoption of textbooks that whitewash its wartime past, and Mr. Koizumi's visit to the Yasukuni Shrine, the Shinto memorial where Class A war criminals are enshrined along with the war dead. Indeed, it was an indication of how much history remains unresolved in this part of the world that there was no ceremony like the one in Moscow in May observing the defeat of Nazi Germany, attended by leaders from both Allied and Axis nations. Instead, in China, South Korea, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Malaysia and Australia, speeches, protests and news organizations criticized Japan's perceived lack of real remorse over its militaristic past. In South Korea, where Aug. 15 is known as Liberation Day from Japanese rule, a visiting North Korean delegation and its South Korean counterpart issued a joint declaration urging the Japanese government to "stop distorting history" and "stop paying reverence to war criminals." "The Japanese oppressed the Korean people," said Jang Geum Sook, a North Korean delegate who was visiting a Seoul prison used during Japanese colonial rule. "They humiliated women to an unspeakable degree by using them as sex slaves. But even though there are many witnesses to these atrocities, the Japanese continue to distort what they did." Mr. Koizumi chose not to visit Yasukuni on Monday, ending weeks of intense speculation. But members of his cabinet and about 50 other lawmakers prayed at the shrine, where the account of events in its war museum is that Japan tried to liberate Asian nations from Western powers and was forced by America into attacking Pearl Harbor. At Yasukuni, members of right-wing groups, holding banners that read, "The Great East Asia War was not a war of invasion," mingled with veterans and youths wearing uniforms from the Imperial Army. But most of the tens of thousands of visitors came simply to pay respects to the war dead. "Although I don't mean to justify the war, I feel that neighboring countries like China are making a fuss over it," said Yoshio Fujita, 79, an Imperial Army veteran who became an abacus teacher after the war. "I just come here out of pure feeling for those enshrined here." His friend, Hiroshi Nozaki, 78, who trained for the Imperial Navy, said he wanted Mr. Koizumi to keep his election promise in 2001 that he would visit Yasukuni on Aug. 15. Mr. Koizumi has prayed at Yasukuni every year but on other dates. "He talked big four years ago, and a politician shouldn't tell a lie," Mr. Nozaki said. "It is pathetic if he doesn't come because foreign countries are making a fuss over it." Yoshiaki Kikyo, 31, said he knew that Japan "executed terrible operations" in Asia, but he started going to Yasukuni last year after Mr. Koizumi's visits attracted criticism in Asia. "The more Yasukuni gets attacked by foreign countries, the more I want to attach importance to it," Mr. Kikyo said. "If it hadn't been for the problems between Prime Minister Koizumi and other Asian countries, I probably wouldn't have come here."

The questions are:

Is the belligerent behavior of Japan's neighbors (especially China with it violent protests) causing more harm than good? It seems that many Japanese are willing to come to terms with and try to fully understand what happened 60 years ago. Clearly, right-wing groups in Japan (and most of the world) are insane, but history has shown them to gain support when a nation feels threatened or treated unfairly by other nations. The Chinese Communist Party has always made certain that Chinese has felt threatened by a long list of enemies, such that there is no nation that the Chinese truly feel friendly towards. This as enable their right-wing ultranationalist party to maintain control ans support despite horrendous actions like the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution, and the Tiannanmen Square Massacre. When Japan was ruled by a nationalist government, we saw what they were capable of. Does the rest of Asia really want a return to this?

Why is it that everytime Japan offers the hand of friendship to its neighbors, its neighbors use it as an opportunity to attack Japan? For the past 60 years we seen Japan make tremendous efforts to increase peace and stability in East Asia. While South Korea has also contributed, it has done little with the opportunities Japan has given it to mend the past. China has been worse, inciting anti-Japanese racism through riots and propoganda. I don't understand, why they don't use Japan's apologies as a stepping stone to improve relations. Japan is trying, why don't they?

	17-08-2005 06:32									#46
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi I don't understand, why they don't use Japan's apologies as a stepping stone to improve relations. Japan is trying, why don't they?

Answer:

quote: Originally posted by DaShi The Chinese Communist Party has always made certain that Chinese has felt threatened by a long list of enemies, such that there is no nation that the Chinese truly feel friendly towards. This as enable their right-wing ultranationalist party to maintain control ans support despite horrendous actions like the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution, and the Tiannanmen Square Massacre.

	17-08-2005 06:41									#47
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I don't think he meant he really didn't understand. More that he wished he didn't.

	17-08-2005 08:08									#48
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So the Chinese Communist Party is now a right-wing entity. How convenient, for some.

Keine Hexerei, nur Behendigkeit.

	17-08-2005 09:10									#49
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I think the japanese conservatives should come together with some good old fashioned southern conservatives. They'd have a great time sympathizing with each other.

	17-08-2005 09:47									#50
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East Asian countries had accepted Japan's apology and relations between Japan and its neighbors were fine until Koizumi was elected.

The problems started when Koizumi started visiting the Yasukuni Shrine which honors war criminals, visits that were aimed at gaining support from right-wing Japanese. Relations really started going downhill when the Japanese government gave official sanction to the textbook that whitewashed Japan's war crimes.

If Koizumi loses the election, and it looks like he will, relations will improve.

	17-08-2005 18:52									#51
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I agree. The people shouting "Death to All Japanese," the clearly anti-Japanese articles published in Chinese newpapers, the portrayal of Japanese people in Chinese world culture textbooks as well as history books, the spurious territorial claims, the 'incidents' involving Japanese students studying in China as well as even local people thought to be Japanese, the boycotting of Japanese goods, the government sponsered anti-Japanese riots, and the refusal to admit there were any apologies ever let alone accept one given all clearly indicate that Koizumi is the sole reason for poor relations and not a red-herring to cover up blatant racism against the Japanese people being used politically in a society far too much built on hatred and prejudice.

Although I found that the most ardent Japanese haters in China tend to be middle class. It's almost seen as fashionable and a way of showing political awareness similar to the role of many charities in other countries.