14-08-2005 21:47									#1
	The 60th Anniversary of Japanese Surrencer Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

This is a special day indeed. On this day sixty years ago the Japanese formally accepted unconditional surrender, ending the largest war ever known to Man by beating back the fascist invaders.

We should never forget the heroic efforts of each and every person who was involved. Without their sacrifices we probably won't be here today. We should also never forget the staggering number of victims of fascists, a great many were murdered systemically, in inhuman killing sprees, or used as guinea pigs in nightmarish experiments.

Therefore it is deeply disturbing to see that, in stark contrast to Germany, Japan cannot come to face its own terrible past in history 60 years after WWII ended. The whitewashing of history in textbooks continues; many Japanese political heavyweights, including current cabinet members and former prime minister continues to pay homage to war criminals; and that Japanese courts continue to rule against civil tort cases against the Japanese government and Japanese corporations.

	14-08-2005 22:57									#3
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troll thread

	14-08-2005 23:35									#4
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How about celebrate the end of the war, not the surrender of the other side?

And when it comes to heroic sacrifices, I'm thinking the Imperial Japanese Army/Navy/Airforce beats any of the other combatants hands down.

	15-08-2005 00:52									#5
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I preferred Kassi's thread.

...

	15-08-2005 00:59									#6
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Don't know why, but this thread seems to have some bias that Kassi's lacked.

	15-08-2005 01:01									#7
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and a typo in the thread title

	15-08-2005 01:46									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat I preferred Kassi's thread. ...

Then he should have started his thread first...

And I'm surprised UR didn't correct his own typo in the thread title...

quote: The 60th Anniversary of Japanese Surrencer

	15-08-2005 01:49									#9
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What's a surrencer?

Oh, and the Japanese surrender

The division of Korea thereafter

	15-08-2005 02:33									#10
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Emperor Hirohito not being hanged :

	15-08-2005 03:01									#11
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quote: And when it comes to heroic sacrifices, I'm thinking the Imperial Japanese Army/Navy/Airforce beats any of the other combatants hands down.

Heroic/brave is risking oneself to do good. I don't think it counts.

	15-08-2005 03:09									#12
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Bravery has nothing to do with good or evil. I'm with you on the heroism part, though.

	15-08-2005 03:10									#13
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What if they believed they sacrificed themselves to do good? Defending the emperor/homeland, helping the Asian countries develope under Japanese rule etc. Many people sincerely believed they were doing good.

	15-08-2005 03:13									#14
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Its not like the average soldier is drawing much moral conclusions on the battlefield, they were simply giving their best. You can be both brave and heroic on the battle even if you are a German of Japanese. Its all about the soldiers individual performance. Is it not brave or even heroic to save your teammates by holding the enemy by yourself?

Last edited by laurentius on 15-08-2005 at 03:21

	15-08-2005 03:16									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Az quote: And when it comes to heroic sacrifices, I'm thinking the Imperial Japanese Army/Navy/Airforce beats any of the other combatants hands down. Heroic/brave is risking oneself to do good. I don't think it counts.

Heroism and bravery is both very subjective. You can't claim those words for the "good" side since the "good" side depends on where you are standing.

	15-08-2005 03:17									#16
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quote: Bravery has nothing to do with good or evil. I'm with you on the heroism part, though.

I think that bravery is defined as a positive act.

Courageous isn't.

quote: What if they believed they sacrificed themselves to do good? Defending the emperor/homeland, helping the Asian countries develope under Japanese rule etc. Many people sincerely believed they were doing good.

Doesn't matter. Of course they thought they were doing good, otherwise they wouldn't be so determined ( even people who think they want to commit evil acts, are just defining good differently, thus what they think of as good, is actually good as described by most of society, and not by them. This doesn't have to do much with a neutral definition of good, as according to an ethical codex )

	15-08-2005 03:24									#17
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Bravery and courage are the same thing. Neither are related to doing good.

	15-08-2005 03:39									#18
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quote: Originally posted by joncha Bravery and courage are the same thing. Neither are related to doing good.

This is sig material.


Morality aside, sacrificing yourself for the greater good is very courageous. To conquer the fear of death without being a reckless fool is very courageous.

I hate how the Japanese government keeps what it did from it's populace. Fess up, guys!

But this gets me thinking...what defines heroism? The Alamo defenders fighting thousands of Mexicans. Some people would say that's a futile cause. Same for the 47 Ronin. Then there's Custer's last stand. Thousands of American Indians vs less than 300 Americans. The Zulu/British encounter. The battle at Thermopylae

Why are some of these seen as stupid while others are seen as "heroic"? All have a handful of people fighting off overwhelming numbers and the end result is always the same. They all died for a cause they believed in.

(I'm not taking sides here. I just want an answer. I asked my friends this when we were drinking and they said "Why do you have to keep bringing up all these philosophical things when we're drunk?" )

I blame it on Apolyton.

	15-08-2005 03:39									#19
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joncha: I thought that bravery and heroism are the same thing. Well, it doesn't really matter, it's a game of definitions.

quote: Heroism and bravery is both very subjective. You can't claim those words for the "good" side since the "good" side depends on where you are standing.

moral relativism

	15-08-2005 03:53									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Az joncha: I thought that bravery and heroism are the same thing. Well, it doesn't really matter, it's a game of definitions. quote: Heroism and bravery is both very subjective. You can't claim those words for the "good" side since the "good" side depends on where you are standing. moral relativism

Yeah, I guess that it's easier to claim that when the "evil" side are performing heroic/brave actions, then they are just fanatics.

Just for the record - blowing yourself to hell is neither heroic nor brave when done against civilians. If I was so unfortunate to belive in a hell, I would say that it was the fastest way to that place.

	15-08-2005 03:56									#21
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quote: Yeah, I guess that it's easier to claim that when the "evil" side are performing heroic/brave actions, then they are just fanatics.

But they're not heroic, because they're fighting for the wrong cause. Now, maybe they think they're heroic, but that's irrelevant.

	15-08-2005 04:03									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Az quote: Yeah, I guess that it's easier to claim that when the "evil" side are performing heroic/brave actions, then they are just fanatics. But they're not heroic, because they're fighting for the wrong cause. Now, maybe they think they're heroic, but that's irrelevant.

I think that we are fighting about the meaning of words. Neither heroic or brave implies any kind of goodness, just that the person has done something extraordinary.

	15-08-2005 04:09									#23
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Oh, if that's how define it, yes. but that's not the definition.

	15-08-2005 04:17									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Az Oh, if that's how define it, yes. but that's not the definition.

well, I go by these :

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=brave

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=heroic

and neither of them claims that the actions are connected to be good,

	15-08-2005 05:09									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan Why are some of these seen as stupid while others are seen as "heroic"?

I think it depends on whether or not it served a useful purpose. The Battle of Thermopolae slowed the Persian advance, giving the Athenians time to withdraw. The Battle of Little Bighorn was a reckless assault simply for the purpose of aggrandizing Custer and putting him on the road to the Whie House.

	15-08-2005 06:58									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker troll thread

And a poor one at that...

	15-08-2005 19:31									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan I hate how the Japanese government keeps what it did from it's populace. Fess up, guys!

The information is out there. It's up to the Japanese people to face up to what they have done in the past. Yes I know the actions of the goverment but Japan is a modern nation very capable of seeking out information if they choose to.

quote: But this gets me thinking...what defines heroism? The Alamo defenders fighting thousands of Mexicans. Some people would say that's a futile cause. Same for the 47 Ronin. Then there's Custer's last stand. Thousands of American Indians vs less than 300 Americans. The Zulu/British encounter. The battle at Thermopylae

IMO both the Alamo and Thermopylae were examples of bravery in overcoming ones fear to stand up for what they belived in. Custers last stand was sadly the result of one mans ego getting a lot of good men killed for nothing.

	15-08-2005 20:14									#28
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While no country is perfect, and considering their unique past, Japan has made an amazing transition from being an isolated country hostile and distrusting of the rest of the world to one of the major global players that has contributed much to benefit of not only those nations that directly suffered under them but to the whole world as well. Such a change is to be admired. It is unfortunate that the innate racism and greed of people in certain other nations, like China, may be creating a nationalistic conservative backlash in Japan. While the Japanese seem to understand atonement for their crimes, these hypocrits never have, and I doubt they will ever play as positive a role as Japan has in the past 60 years.

	15-08-2005 20:27									#29
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Things seem to be changing btw. Koizumi and Akihito apologized on behalf of Japan for the suffering caused by the Japanese during WW2 (instead of the usual "personal" apologies), and most Japanese now consider the war to have been a grave mistake on which the country hasn't debated enough (Source: Euronews France).

That's quite different from the picture I had of the Japanese. It looks like the conditions are finally here for the Japanese to really work on their past.

Not that it'll make any difference in international politics, but at least it'll be healthy for the Japanese people.

	15-08-2005 21:36									#30
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat well, I go by these : http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=brave http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=heroic and neither of them claims that the actions are connected to be good,

Yep.
After all, who decides what´s good (as was already mentioned in this thread)?

If heroism and bravery is connected to doing good or any moral principles, you can say that most soldiers who are considered heroes (and most of the examples mentioned) were neither heroic nor brave,
as their heroic deeds were connected to the killing of other humans (which of course violates moral principles and religious rules like the ten commandments )