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buddha888
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What's his problem? My army is "unsurpassed" and we have mucho tech advantage yet he wants to go vendetta with his clutch of bases just cause I have green economy.
That's overly simplistic - is it really his ideological antithesis?
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:37
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Plus many AI will go vendetta against ANY faction that is a clear leader unless you are pacted . Its a game feature designed to make things harder that as you get a lead, other factions tend not to like you.
And yes your SE choices are a factor-- It is tougher to keep friendly relations with someone if you run their aversion
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Verrucosus
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If you really want to get him angry choose "Planned". He doesn't like "Green" simply because it's not "Free Market", but his real aversion is "Planned".
Fortunately, most of the original factions (all but the University and the Believers) have their preferences and aversions in the same social category. The advantage here is that "diplomatic restrictions" to social engineering are limited to that one category (unless, of course, you want to impress more than one faction).
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cal_01
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I remember there was a list somewhere here or gamefaqs with all the likes/dislikes of each faction. Does anyone know where it is?
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CEO Aaron
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Everything has its price. Even you.
Aug 2002
time: 05:37
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I'm going to confirm, that to the Morgan AI, it doesn't matter if you're running Planned or Green, the CEO will be displeased. If you don't want to stay in Free Market, wait for him to lose patience, declare vendetta, and go whomp him. Once he's surrendered, he'll only have one attitude: Submissive. 
Generally at the outset of my games, I choose my allies based on which of them I think I can keep happy while maintaining proper growth. If you're willing to bribe your allies, you can extend their patience, but sooner or later if you're the top dog, the other dogs are going to start biting.
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spartak
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and then there is only one way to go - Boom
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Verrucosus
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I'm not so sure that aversions are unimportant.
I like Green a lot because of the efficiency, so I often ally with Deidre. The relation suffers when I switch to Planned for pop-booming, but it has always survived ten to fifteen turns of booming. However, in one game I needed her to attack me and switching to "Free Market" worked in no time. Of course, it's probably not helpful to compare different games. Maybe we should test this in a controlled environment.
Also, Miriam and Zakharov scold you for running Knowledge and Fundamentalism respectively. (Of course, Miriam is often seething whatever the circumstances.)
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Verrucosus
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Sorry, Chaos Theory, I misled you.
What I meant was that I thought running Knowledge gets Miriam angry and running Fundy gets Zak angry. I'm afraid that I do not remember the exact message (something about research being wicked and immoral?) and, now that I think about more about it, I may have confused it with Miriam's reaction to Democracy.
It's an interesting point because I have often avoided Knowledge to keep Miriam from attacking before I have set up my defenses. If it turns out that she doesn't have any problems with Knowledge despite the fact that she cannot use it herself, this would certainly increase social options. Thanks!
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Senethro
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These days I find it rare that my SE settings are not Demo, Free market/Planned and Wealth, and so have a habit of upsetting nearly everybody.
You can find Miram and Zaks comments in the script file.
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Verrucosus
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I just did a short test with Deidre in a time warp game. Zak did not comment on Fundamentalism nor did Miriam say anything about Knowledge. Please disregard my earlier comments.
Fundy/Knowledge is a strange combination indeed. It doesn't have any net negatives, but only its benefits (+1 morale, +1 efficiency) are not that impressive either.
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Senethro
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quote:
Originally posted by Chaos Theory
It would be a better tactic if the little factions teamed up and opposed you jointly. They take you on because they have no hope of overcoming you peacefully, but unfortunately the AI is stupid in combat, and gets stupider when it perceives itself as weaker. |
This is in fact what they do. I've been in a situation with pop-booming Drones with 300 pop by 2220 causing such a difference in score that everyone pacted with everyone against me. (except for the caretakers and usurpers)
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Commy
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St. Louis, MO, USA
Mar 2004
time: 05:37
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I've done interesting tests on this (multiple adversions, multiple idealogies)...the more complex ones I don't remember the results of, but, when dealing with the factions in the game...
If you are doing the default setting (frontier, survival, simple...), no faction will get mad at you specifically for your SE choices...
If you are doing the idealogy of a faction, the faction is more likely to be friendly (doing free market to please Morgan, democracy to please Lal...)
If you are doing an SE choice that is not the idealogy of that faction, the faction is more likely to be hostile (doing green annoys Morgan, doing wealth annoys Zak...)
If you are doing the adversion of a faction, TECHNICALLY, it doesn't affect your relationship...however, since most idealogies and adversions for factions are in the same category (Lal likes Demo, hates police state; Morgan hates planned), it doesn't really matter...this can be proven (as said above) between Zak and Miriam...doing Fundy has no effect on Zak (but doing Wealth or Power does)...
Adversion only means what SE choice that faction can't make, it has no role in diplomacy...so doing planned is not going to make Morgan more mad than doing green, even though planned is his adversion...
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cal_01
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Commy: I've ran my own tests, and from what I can tell, both Morgan and Deidre get fairly upset if you run their adversions (ie. Planned or Free Market respectively).
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Verrucosus
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Hm, now I'm really confused. If you read Vel's comments about Miriam (and some of the Crossfire factions) in the "Getting Ready for the Bad Guys" section, you'd think that aversion is a factor in diplomacy.
Vel observes that the standard matrix of social preferences was set up to favour conflict. Has anyone played with randomized faction agendas? I was often tempted to do so, but somehow I never did, maybe because it diminishes the role-playing aspect. When you use this setting, is it possible for several factions to have the same agenda? If that were the case, maybe we would see some games with AI factions less crippled by early warfare.
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Commy
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St. Louis, MO, USA
Mar 2004
time: 05:37
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quote:
Originally posted by cal_01
Commy: I've ran my own tests, and from what I can tell, both Morgan and Deidre get fairly upset if you run their adversions (ie. Planned or Free Market respectively). |
This is only because their adversions happen (by chance) to be in the same SE category...
Morgan does not like those doing planned or green because they aren't free market...he won't like you do his adversion (planned), but only because it is in the same SE category as free market (if you're doing planned, you won't like you, because you are NOT doing free market)...
If you run Morgan's or Deirdre's adversions, they will get mad at you, but not because you are doing their adversions, rather, because you aren't doing their idealogy...
This can be proven in two tests...if you run Fundy, Zakharov could care less, even though it is technically his adversion...he only cares when you are doing a value other than knowledge (complains about wealth and power...)
The other test is with the Pirates...the idealogy of the Pirates, while not well known, is Power...if you do wealth or knowledge, the Pirates will get irritated...however, note they don't have an adversion...an adversion is not what triggers conflict, it is by not aligning yourself with a factions idealogies that does...
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cal_01
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quote:
Originally posted by Commy
This is only because their adversions happen (by chance) to be in the same SE category...
Morgan does not like those doing planned or green because they aren't free market...he won't like you do his adversion (planned), but only because it is in the same SE category as free market (if you're doing planned, you won't like you, because you are NOT doing free market)...
If you run Morgan's or Deirdre's adversions, they will get mad at you, but not because you are doing their adversions, rather, because you aren't doing their idealogy...
This can be proven in two tests...if you run Fundy, Zakharov could care less, even though it is technically his adversion...he only cares when you are doing a value other than knowledge (complains about wealth and power...)
The other test is with the Pirates...the idealogy of the Pirates, while not well known, is Power...if you do wealth or knowledge, the Pirates will get irritated...however, note they don't have an adversion...an adversion is not what triggers conflict, it is by not aligning yourself with a factions idealogies that does... |
Ahh, I see what you're getting at. Sorry, I misread your post before. 
But yeah, I think that's more of a limitation of the SMAC/X faction settings more than anything else.
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Xian
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quote:
Originally posted by Verrucosus
Vel observes that the standard matrix of social preferences was set up to favour conflict. Has anyone played with randomized faction agendas? I was often tempted to do so, but somehow I never did, maybe because it diminishes the role-playing aspect. When you use this setting, is it possible for several factions to have the same agenda? If that were the case, maybe we would see some games with AI factions less crippled by early warfare. |
Nope, Ive tried it myself setting up factions deliberately so that my choices (either demo/planned/knowledge or green) dont make any one mad but it doenst matter. Actually its almost impossible, the factions are balanced out so that no combination of 7 can possibly make everyone happy with ANY choices. actually its even worse than that, no combination can even spare the human player from ideological motivated war either
Try it, you'll see.
Anyhow, no, the AI remains dumb as ever, and will make a reason up for you to go to war regardless. No matter how happy you make them and even bribe them.
quote:
Originally posted by Commy
If you run Morgan's or Deirdre's adversions, they will get mad at you, but not because you are doing their adversions, rather, because you aren't doing their idealogy...
This can be proven in two tests.. |
you can add to that Domai, whose goal is future society Eudomia. His aversion is green but he doesnt care if you run it.
Furute society choices rarely make a difference because by the end of the game either they hate you they love you. The consciousness for example rarely declares war over Thought control or Eudomia
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cal_01
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quote:
Originally posted by Xian
Nope, Ive tried it myself setting up factions deliberately so that my choices (either demo/planned/knowledge or green) dont make any one mad but it doenst matter. Actually its almost impossible, the factions are balanced out so that no combination of 7 can possibly make everyone happy with ANY choices. actually its even worse than that, no combination can even spare the human player from ideological motivated war either
Try it, you'll see.
Anyhow, no, the AI remains dumb as ever, and will make a reason up for you to go to war regardless. No matter how happy you make them and even bribe them.
you can add to that Domai, whose goal is future society Eudomia. His aversion is green but he doesnt care if you run it.
Furute society choices rarely make a difference because by the end of the game either they hate you they love you. The consciousness for example rarely declares war over Thought control or Eudomia |
I always find it odd that Domai's aversion is green. If he's like a "commie" or something, then shouldn't he be against Free Market?
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Xian
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quote:
Originally posted by Maniac
There are already three factions who can't reasonably run FM: the Gaians, the Hive and the Cult. While before SMAX and the Drones, there wasn't any faction with an aversion to green. So they gave that aversion to Domai to create a bit of variety.
Don't look for more after it than that. |
excactly, it was a balance issue not ideology
however, I know plenty of labor leaders who have no problem with *markets* they have a problem with *human beings* allowed to be bauhgt and sold inside them.
Its only in propaganda that you cant be a socialist and a free marketeer. Just like when they freed the slaves people didnt burn all the cotton and decide all plantations are evil
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18-08-2005 21:43
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