21-08-2005 09:55									#1
	Unofficial: Trade Screen Shots with CBR? Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

It is allowed by the amended rules.

The question is, do we want to suggest to CBR that we trade shots, or do we want them to chase us for them?

Time out will be seven days, but we need an idea of where the poll is heading in 24 hours (so we can send a message to CBR).

	21-08-2005 10:09									#2
	Remove this text

Well, I'm not sure about that. Should we have some kind of restriction? Like "turn of" resources on map, etc?
IMHO, if we agree on trade screenshots, we should do it without any restriction concerning resources or luxuries outside our borders, but maybe we could agree about some limitations on our territory.

	21-08-2005 10:49									#3
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We can't really give them a map that shows resources only outside our borders. I'd want to wipe all resources from the map, so we can save the prime ones (that we know about) for ourselves. For all we know, CBR lacks vital resources, and they may be placing higher city priority on those sites.

I'd also want to hide units (you'll never know how we'll need to use them, even explorers, so secrecy can be important), and terrain improvments (to hide the brilliant work for our Interior Ministry, as well as to hide the potential output of Apolyton).

	21-08-2005 10:55									#4
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We should black everything inside our borders, and suggest beforehand that they do the same (so they won't see us as selfish or anything), but apart from that we might want to leave resources on... if they have already settled (should we wait till they do?), then we could probably get a settler to the good spot to the west before them (we are closer).

The major thing we will be revealing is that we have 3 spices, but they probably have several silks, or gems (or maybe a third lux) at least...

I think we will gain more from it that they will...

	21-08-2005 16:30									#5
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quote: Originally posted by N35t0r We should black everything inside our borders, and suggest beforehand that they do the same (so they won't see us as selfish or anything), but apart from that we might want to leave resources on...

Sounds fair to me

	21-08-2005 17:01									#6
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i dont think we should trade screenshots with CBR, they probably have an earlier contact to the civ we expect south, so they could trade the screenshots we gave them!
and terrain knowledge is vital during wartime!
but if we agree on not trading the screenshots to others then it is ok, as I guess we all agree on fighting and winning a war against CBR during this game

	21-08-2005 21:51									#7
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I voted with the fruit, for this reason:

I say YES, IF and ONLY IF all but the terrain features ARE turned off. Also, we black out any cultural border details.

If we agree to that, then we can trade like this, until the end of game.

And I say NO, if we show more than that.


Remember, what we work out here, with CBR, will likely how we work with any other civ that we find. So the watch word is caution. We don't show what cities might be more important for different things. like worker pumps vs Mil Unit pumps. Granted, it would be nice for us to know those thing, about them, but sometimes you have to go with what is safer for us.

E_T

	22-08-2005 00:56									#8
	Got spare money?

I think that we can explore the area that matters by ourselves. No need to give CBR the gift of our knowledge.

	22-08-2005 04:18									#9
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Militarily, I want to see their land, and hate the idea of showing our land. So no, I would rather not.

	22-08-2005 04:28									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

We could always farb it up a bit...

	22-08-2005 07:29									#11
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I don't know if I want to start down that road, sleepy.

But you raise a good point. How do we know the shots we receive are not 'farbed up'?

I have voted for fruit. I will wait for more people to have a say before weighing the pros and cons.

	22-08-2005 07:48									#12
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The Brazuca's proposal will be in one piece. They seem to be interested in our acceptance of the whole package. There’s a name for this, where you can’t separate the topics, but I just can’t remember.
Lets wait and see.

	22-08-2005 07:51									#13
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That's what negotiations are for, Aro.

Still, we may well decide to trade screens in any event.

	22-08-2005 07:57									#14
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yep, I know that... I was just trying to remember the f**** name for this, a proposal consisting of many items, but packed as one..!

	22-08-2005 08:18									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Poly-Akryll i dont think we should trade screenshots with CBR, they probably have an earlier contact to the civ we expect south, so they could trade the screenshots we gave them! and terrain knowledge is vital during wartime! but if we agree on not trading the screenshots to others then it is ok, as I guess we all agree on fighting and winning a war against CBR during this game

Yeah, I'd say that should there be trading, a no trading the screenshots to other parties clause will be a necessary part of the deal.



In any case, do we know how many warriors they have, and how early / late did they build them WRT us? because if they had a small head start, then we'd gain more, since at least half of what we'd show them they already know...



[edit:] Also, aren't fake screenshots a big no-no?

	22-08-2005 08:19									#16
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Take it or leave it? Package deal?

	22-08-2005 08:28									#17
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If we decide to trade screens, we shouldn't turn of resources or something. It is preferable do not trade at all... I don’t want to give wrong impressions, and I don’t want to be tricky and slippery, not even look like...
I may be wrong, but the Brazucas don’t want to do anything suspicious, they seem eager to show how peace lovers, loyal and trustable folks they are. They’re trying to change their image, of course. As an example of this: about this screen trade, they will do it only after check that UN amendment and be totally sure that they’re not breaking the law.

Other thing Wosret said at the MSN: This “Falso Moralista” guy is very important there, and it’s a “cool guy”, according him.

Btw, has someone the link to this topic at UN? I promised to Wosret…

	22-08-2005 08:33									#18
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by N35t0r Yeah, I'd say that should there be trading, a no trading the screenshots to other parties clause will be a necessary part of the deal. [edit:] Also, aren't fake screenshots a big no-no?

I think so. No tricks, I'd prefer.

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Take it or leave it? Package deal?

Not exactly a "take or leave", I think we can negotiate, but they'd prefer for sure a package deal.

	22-08-2005 08:39									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Aro Btw, has someone the link to this topic at UN? I promised to Wosret…

http://www.evo-games.net/Home/viewt...41ac198e036eca1

	22-08-2005 08:39									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Aro I think so. No tricks, I'd prefer.

I meant with the general uneasyness that they could alter them (is this what 'farbing up' means? )

	22-08-2005 08:41									#21
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Aro, hit the quote button of my post to the link to get the full, unshortened url.

	22-08-2005 09:07									#22
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N35t0r, I was not addressing you, but them.
And us, in some degree. I mean, if we're very honest in our actions, but strong and firm, and prepared for everything, we'll win two times. We're Gentlemen (Blood-thirsty ones, but Gentlemen anyway).
It's easy to fake a map, but soon or later we'll discover and then everybody will know. They can't afford another disloyalty… I doubt they will even try.

@Nye: thanks, just sent it to Brazucas.

	22-08-2005 09:44									#23
	Remove this text

Ok, first of all sorry for the absence, I've been a bit busy this past week since I'm moving out of my current apartment, destination unknown and I need to wrap up all my pending matters from here to wednesday. I have not really checked Poly, only MZO. That said, apologies, after wednesday I should be much more relaxed.

I am rather mixed on this issue.

1) Do we WANT to see their territory?

2) Do we MIND if they see ours?


I think the MoW and the consuls are perhaps the best people to answer those two questions. The problem that I see is that since we're going to end up blacking out parts and perhaps not showing resources or whatever, it's going to end up like "well, we don't trust you so we're only showing you what we want you to see".

In that case, my best suggestion would be to wait until THEY suggest it to us, we'll appear much more receptive if we say "yes we agree but with these strings attached" than "do you want to trade screenshots but without this and this and that...".

-MZ

	22-08-2005 10:31									#24
	Inflate your Upload Space

how many explorers are they likely to have right now? if they've been doing growth instead of exploring, we aren't likely to get much of a map, while we've been doing a fair bit of exploring already.

Voted fruit

	23-08-2005 04:08									#25
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quote: Originally posted by N35t0r I meant with the general uneasyness that they could alter them (is this what 'farbing up' means? )

Apolyton PTWDG #1
GoW member GengisFarb created a fake screenshot for Team GS. (To hide an advancing Voxian army).

Old GS members now call any fake screenshots as a "farb".


Quite amusing at the time really. One of the better wars in that game.....even if GS did eventually win.

	23-08-2005 04:27									#26
	Increase the size of your Attachments

All wars that last more than 1 turn are good.

I lost all respect for the Civ3 combat model after the Lego War in that game. So unrealistic and stupid than an empire should fall in just one turn.

	29-08-2005 01:52									#27
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Trade the shots, no additions or deletions to the shots. Trade through the map maker so he can check for forgeries. They have explored more than us, so we will get the advantage.

	29-08-2005 06:53									#28
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Trade the shots, no additions or deletions to the shots. Trade through the map maker so he can check for forgeries. They have explored more than us, so we will get the advantage.

I don't think we can do that. The admins/map maker are not there to be extra mechanics of the game.

With fewer units than us for longer, their exploration advantage might be doubted.

	29-08-2005 08:26									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Maybe. But I still think they had more time to explore than us unless they have run into difficulties with another Civ. I'm still heavily in favor of trading screen shots now as opposed to later. With an embassy they will see our capital anyways and it's going to be awfully hard to try to get them not to circle our borders and get the lay of the land right now as well.

	29-08-2005 08:27									#30
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I agree with that.