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shawnmmcc
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No - I think their service in the Navy is good enough, Drake - as usual you parse and distort, cut out pertinent sections are only ask leading "Have you stopped beating your wife" questions.
My actual statement was
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...- and I also repeat, any of them that are gung-ho about Iraq could redeploy as Corpman, the Navy has a big push for that. Just a thought. |
The option is there. If they are gung-ho (you DO understand what gung-ho means, sort of like certain armchair rah-rah types here) over Iraq - and I only know of one of our navy people I am sure is as gung-ho as you are - then that person has this option, and in fact their own service, the Navy, is ENCOURAGING it, and will reward them if they do. If they do not exercise this option, with it's encouragement, and rewards - again, based on those actions one can draw one's own conclusions.
By the way, have YOU made contributions to the fund being raised by army families to make sure that all the troops have body army, etc? Have you voted for higher taxes, or at least called your representatives (I am not sure if you are a US expat, I am assuming that) to encourage them, that are totally earmarked for our military. Maybe a 1% "for the troops" surcharge? Hippocracy takes many forms.
And since I know how your typical response/attack mode works - I have done volunteer work with both handicapped and abused children, both of which are very dear to me. I also looked into the Guard but there were problems, including my 13 plus diopter correction, plus 2.25 diopter astigmatism. Look up diopter if you don't understand the problem.
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shawnmmcc
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binTravkin - now you are not being totally fair. Count the number of USA posters that are opposed to this war and the Bush administration (seriously - you will see a big majority oppose it), and you we will see that the people of the USA are not that bad, not even a majority of our voters, at least in 2000 (nobody got the majority that year). I know Bush is in charge of our country, and his administration is the face of the USA the rest of the world sees - but hey, we all don't want Intelligent Design taught in our Science classrooms.
The problem is that our Repulican version of Democracy heavily disenfranchises those who do not win elections, which usually only requires a plurality. Add in the gerrymandering issue - how our politicians on both side create artificial boundaries for voting districts - and you will understant why I state the US has limited Democracy. I am beginning to wish we were Parliamentary, though that has its disadvantages to.
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binTravkin
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Lord of Progress of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Jan 2004
time: 07:37
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Well, actually my point was to forget this thread as most opponents to what I and you post here seem to be persons with invincible faith in the US and the course it's taking.
I do not intend to insult the US people, I rather have pity on most of them as they're living under such system where you can go either to one extreme or another (talking about the disenfrachising of opposition) and where their children are being fed heavy propaganda daily, be it state schools or simply (censored and full of misinterpreted facts) cable television.
If I was US citizen and was aware of all this, I'd most probably move out to some country where I can breathe more freely.
And frankly speaking - with the figures standing behind Bush and his administration (it's easy to see that oil and war industries have particular interest in such policies), I don't see how the opposite party would make something really different.
It's all about money and half of the people get fooled by all those extensive election campaigns.
Politics is a big business in Latvia as well, but here the government does not do a lot harm in going selfish and cruel.
In US where everything is about government and government is everywhere (all those agencies, some secret some not so, the hi tech monitoring stuff and the like), it makes a real difference.
I think I don't have to tell you where the difference lies, over the last 8 years the life of almost each and every US citizen has changed, even if it's only the economical aspect which did.
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shawnmmcc
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binTravkijn - that's one reason why we gave up television when we had our little girl, and we are considering home schooling, or a Jewish or Catholic school (in the US both are pretty good about focusing on teaching, not propoganda except some religion, and you can have your child opt out of those classes) if we can afford it.
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binTravkin
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Lord of Progress of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Jan 2004
time: 07:37
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Yeah, I certainly see no reason to believe the people involved in the process and have actually been to Iraq and the ME over you, who have been sitting at your keyboard eating Doritos for your entire life.
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Well, I even don't know what Doritos is..
And talking about people being involved in the process - I was thinking that this thread was about your navy and things related, not Iraq.
Should have missed something..
When you quote some official source it's not "talking to people who had been there".
Also when you pretend that that or other device in your equipment is "technically superior to anything anyone else has" it sounds just as you've read it from some "official source" and are believing in it with all your heart.
Are you one hundred missiles to have tested AEGIS efficency to a level of one percent?
Have you even had the one hundred missiles flying at your AEGIS (I deduce it from your posts) equipped ship?
No?
Then STFU and don't talk things like "talking to people who have been there, seen that blahblahblah"!
Noone has seen how exactly your hi-tech equipment works in wartime because the nations who have the hi-tech counter-equipment don't go to war with US due to one reason - nukes, not any particular AEGIS or other shiny sh^t!
We have seen how your military tactics and overall geopolitical strategy work though and it seems that something's gone wrong, haven't it?
Vietnam anyone? Iraq anyone?
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Armchair Generals  |
Brainwashed cannonfodder 
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And before you answer, think real hard about who here sounds like an ideologue  |
Well, yes I am a member of people who advertise "the ideology of free thought and private opinion" over "brainwashed patriotism and zealous believing in what you've been told from above" and I don't care how do I sound as long as I don't sound so suspiciously similar to official propaganda (read "lies") and opinion as you do.
The difference is that I've been able to look at what's happening from several aspects and I am aware of more idealogies than you have ever been.
You seem to have only one viewpoint and only one "true" ideology.
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binTravkijn - that's one reason why we gave up television when we had our little girl, and we are considering home schooling, or a Jewish or Catholic school (in the US both are pretty good about focusing on teaching, not propoganda except some religion, and you can have your child opt out of those classes) if we can afford it. |
Bingo!
You have to send your child in religious school just because the official propaganda is even worse.
If I was in your place I'd feel very bad about either choice.
I hope you'll be able to afford some open-minded student teaching your children.
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Patroklos
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Back home in good ole Norfolk VA
Dec 2001
time: 05:37
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Well, I even don't know what Doritos is.. |
It is what made you fat, and also probobly why you irrationally hate us uber hot in shape military guys. Then again, I am in the Navy...
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When you quote some official source it's not "talking to people who had been there". |
If I had done this, I would certainly be in jail. Everything I have posted is easily verified from Janes (not even an American source). If you have issues with them, well, your done.
quote:
And talking about people being involved in the process - I was thinking that this thread was about your navy and things related, not Iraq.
Should have missed something.. |
A the topic changed, so did my comments. However, the same thing applies to the OP since I am in the Navy and you are not. I have actual experience about what I am taking about, you do not.
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Also when you pretend that that or other device in your equipment is "technically superior to anything anyone else has" it sounds just as you've read it from some "official source" and are believing in it with all your heart. |
"The probelm with being better than everyone else is that people assume you are pretencious."
Fortunelty for me China and Iran agree with me, not you.
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Are you one hundred missiles to have tested AEGIS efficency to a level of one percent?
Have you even had the one hundred missiles flying at your AEGIS (I deduce it from your posts) equipped ship?
No?
Then STFU and don't talk things like "talking to people who have been there, seen that blahblahblah"! |
Yes, we do it once a week. It is one of the best things about the AEGIS system. And it is Aegis; the letters don't stand for anything.
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Noone has seen how exactly your hi-tech equipment works in wartime because the nations who have the hi-tech counter-equipment don't go to war with US due to one reason - nukes, not any particular AEGIS or other shiny sh^t! |
The reason they don't go to war with us is because they DONT have hi-tech counter equipment, and the know it.
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We have seen how your military tactics and overall geopolitical strategy work though and it seems that something's gone wrong, haven't it?
Vietnam anyone? Iraq anyone? |
Both overwhelming military victories. The failures are all political, that is exactly what Vietnam proved.
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and I don't care how do I sound as long as I don't sound so suspiciously |
Thats good. Hopefully you don't care about everyone laughing at you either. I would suspect since it must be a regular occurrence, and you have so far not killed yourself, you don't.
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The difference is that I've been able to look at what's happening from several aspects and I am aware of more idealogies than you have ever been.
You seem to have only one viewpoint and only one true ideology. |
Yes, the ever valuable "zit faced D&D addict" aspect, and my favorite, the "virgin computer dork" perspective.
Now please, excuse yourself, grown ups are talking here.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:37
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by binTravkin
quote:
Well, actually my point was to forget this thread as most opponents to what I and you post here seem to be persons with invincible faith in the US and the course it's taking.
I do not intend to insult the US people, I rather have pity on most of them as they're living under such system where you can go either to one extreme or another (talking about the disenfrachising of opposition) and where their children are being fed heavy propaganda daily, be it state schools |
My child attended public school. They covered current affairs in social studies, and had apparently fairly vigorous discussions. Opposition to current govt policies was not at all discouraged, as far as i can tell. Frankly you dont know what youre talking about american public schools.
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or simply (censored and full of misinterpreted facts) cable television. |
almost half of US households dont even have cable TV. And cable has several news networks, with different points of view. And none are censored by the govt - if you have evidence to the contrary, please present it.
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In US where everything is about government and government is everywhere [/q}
Again, you really dont know what youre talking about.
[q](all those agencies, some secret some not so, the hi tech monitoring stuff and the like), it makes a real difference. |
Are you talking about the NSA? do you know what youre talking about?
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I think I don't have to tell you where the difference lies, over the last 8 years the life of almost each and every US citizen has changed, even if it's only the economical aspect which did. |
Since 1997? What is special about 1997? Of course life changes, thats what happens in life, its always changing. What else are you talking about?
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:37
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quote:
Originally posted by binTravkin
And regarding censorship and agencies, I would only name one example - the official version was that Pentagon was hit by plane, although some pics from the site show some debris very unlikely belonging to plane.
The report also told about camera materials being confiscated all around the suite and the "plane's" path.
Isn't that censoring? |
That material is available. No the networks dont cover it much. They also dont spend much time on UFO's, or the prophecies of Nostradomus. Or Holocaust revisionism.
Youre starting to moving into some fairly nutso territory, you know that?http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm
Last edited by lord of the mark on 30-08-2005 at 19:38
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Lonestar
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AECCP Dark Lord of the Sith
Aug 2000
time: 00:37
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quote:
Originally posted by shawnmmcc
Joseph and Lonestart - thanks for a good post. However, your posts make my point for me. Why do the US have to have carrier task forces in the Atlantic, Pacific, and Indian Oceans? Are we an empire? Are we the world's policemen. What gives us the right, besides force, to do this? |
Since the end of WW2 keeping wars away from the Western Hemisphere has been a bedrock of our Foriegn and Defense policies. Like Britain in the 19th century, retaining the most capable navy in the world allows us to choose as much, or as little, war as we want.
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And if we are truly being a force of good - what about Rwanda, Sudan, and the Kosovo Albanians killing off Serbs (oops, we are there aleady).
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You're trying to preach to the wrong guy onRwanda and Sudan. And to me the Kosovo Campaign was always more fishy than the Iraq war (which I would discribe as "a whole bunch of *real* good reasons to go, and we decided pull a bunch out of our ass when we made our case to the public")
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So we really aren't being the world's policeman, we are protecting our interests. If our interests require force to protect, and extend around the world - can you say "Empire." It walks like a duck, quack likes a duck, and craps like a duck. It's a duck.
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But see, what's the defination of Empire? We aren't running around annexing other countries, and the only place that you can argue seriously is turning into an American Protectorate through our use of force is Iraq.
Are we an Empire? Well, I suppose in the strictest sense of the word, yes, we are. We have a history of stripping away land ownership from Spain, Mexico, and assorted Indian Tribes. We formed a country out of over a dozen pseudo-independant states.
Are we an Empire because of Modern overseas adventurism? Negative. Like I said, I don't see any annexation going on.
quote:
Now is the US de facto Empire a force for good? At times, yes. I had wondered abot Aceh. I had noticed certain reports from NGO's at the beginning, and caught the games played with our military relief. I had not known about the fact the Civil Authorities were being overriden by the military, I did not know Indoensia was still that bad.
But ask the Panamanians - who helped put Noreiga in power? Ask the Chileans, the South Koreans all through the fifties until the revolution in the nineties - or the Iranians and Iraqis over our actions in the fifties. Now I will grant that our meddling was not as bad as the Soviets (and Che will disagree), but - they're gone.
Our carrier task forces are instruments of policy, and of force. We use them to impose our policies, and national self-interest, on other countries. We DO NOT need 12 task forces to protect the US and invade Afghanistan, but we do need them to project our policy and power throughout the world. |
See, like I said earlier in my post. Having such a capable Navy allows us to take as much or as little of War as we want. And unless we have a major paradigm shift in Foriegn policy (such as complete isolationism) we will need to retain the ability to project power downrange in large amounts.
quote:
That is where we differ, and I will grant anyone serving that they at least are willing to put their money where their mouth is, so to speak - and I also repeat, any of them that are gung-ho about Iraq could redeploy as Corpman, the Navy has a big push for that. Just a thought. |
My job is much cooler. 
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shawnmmcc
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LOM (sorry I should have specified Catholic schools for the opting out - but we are considering both types of schools) - I am in one of those states where we don't teach evolution, we teach gradual change over time to keep the Southern Baptist Convention Happy. Where the High Schools have been taken to court multiple times over having a Gay-Straight Alliance club - they are periodically banned, while Bible study clubs are not - and where we just had to have a Baptist minister kicked out via lawsuit from the lunch room in a HS south of here (for proslytizing).
And where my wife felt it necessary to carefully avoid the fact of her being Jewish, and where a Southern Baptist supervisor, in the US Government, felt very comfortable telling me that he doesn't date that kind of person (reference Jews). And yes, there are laws against it and they are not enforced in states like this unless you somehow get lucky and get a Yankee for a supervisor - and even then only one who has the guts to buck the system.
I have lived in another state, West Virginia, where fundamentalist bible classes were taught in public schools, and in the middle school you had to send a note to keep you kids out of the class. Remember, I raised a 7, 9, and 14 year old that I inherited (for five years), so to speak - their dad was deceased, a careless gunsmith - and the history, english, and composition courses they were taught were poor to nonexistant. I also, during my mother's terminal illness, did some of the PTA work for my younger sisters. There are ALOT of lousy schools out there - and yes I had seriously thought about leaving Kentucky, and now having my job contracted out has made it no longer a choice.
The cable channels spend MORE time on "UFO's, or the prophecies of Nostradomus. Or Holocaust revisionism. " then they do dealing with many of the substantive issues here, especially the issues of hardware that poses a real threat to American ships. Or for that matter on what happens to the surviving children of KIA - they don't even get to finish their school year unless it is within the six month "vacate government housing" rules - or the situation in VA hospitals. Note, they do deal with those - but there is more on UFO's than the VA Hospitals, and more on Nostradomus than the kids of the KIA.
And on whether there is a propoganda element to our history books - I don't know is POM is in HS yet, but if she is do her schools teach about the Sand River Massacre, or the island of Batangas - you can place both in their proper conflicts, I assume? Every country has their myths, their spin, the things they "neglect" to teach. The US may be better than some, but definitely is worse than others.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:37
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by shawnmmcc
quote:
And where my wife felt it necessary to carefully avoid the fact of her being Jewish, and where a Southern Baptist supervisor, in the US Government, felt very comfortable telling me that he doesn't date that kind of person (reference Jews). And yes, there are laws against it and they are not enforced in states like this unless you somehow get lucky and get a Yankee for a supervisor - and even then only one who has the guts to buck the system. |
I have no problem with a non-Jew saying they dont date Jews. How else would i preserve my right to say, not date non-Jews (if i were single)?
[q0The cable channels spend MORE time on "UFO's, or the prophecies of Nostradomus. Or Holocaust revisionism. " then they do dealing with many of the substantive issues here, especially the issues of hardware that poses a real threat to American ships. Or for that matter on what happens to the surviving children of KIA - they don't even get to finish their school year unless it is within the six month "vacate government housing" rules - or the situation in VA hospitals. Note, they do deal with those - but there is more on UFO's than the VA Hospitals, and more on Nostradomus than the kids of the KIA.[/b]
I was responding to Bin travkins 9/11 conspiracy theorizing, which was the basis for his claim that the cable channels are govt propaganda.
Look, popular newsmedia spend too little time on detailed policy questions for my taste. That is out of the quest for ratings, not out of bias I think.
quote:
And on whether there is a propoganda element to our history books - I don't know is POM is in HS yet, but if she is do her schools teach about the Sand River Massacre, or the island of Batangas - you can place both in their proper conflicts, I assume? Every country has their myths, their spin, the things they "neglect" to teach. The US may be better than some, but definitely is worse than others. |
POTM is in middle school. Again, they dont teach every detail ( i presume Batangas is in Phillipines? Im quite sure they discussed the annexation of the Phillipines, and the controversy about it - they certainly discussed McCarthyism. They really do have a hard time fitting everything in, and give far too much homework.
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Lonestar
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AECCP Dark Lord of the Sith
Aug 2000
time: 00:37
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quote:
Originally posted by shawnmmcc
Lonestar - Empire does not consist of simply annexing territory. For example, I used the "World Policeman" example. I am defining "empire" as the coercive use of force on other countries that have not initiated war with you. If you want to define it as some middle ground between the two, go ahead. But no matter what you call it, it will have more in common with the old British Empire then let's say Finland.
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Possibly. Or at least a lower suicide rate. 
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If you are not all gung-ho over Iraq-2, then your having a way cooler job - which FYI I agree with you - is great. But if you are gung-ho over the Iraq intervention? Then if you do what Patroklos did - then you will have my respect. |
Patroklos is a Supply officer, man. Yes, he's on a VBSS team but his main job on the ship is making sure the accounts all add up. 
quote:
If you are just as pro-invasion, but prefer to opt-out of the nastiest parts of the conflict simple because you job is "cooler" - as I've said in other posts, I will let people draw their own conclusions... |
You mean when I didn't volunter to go ashore and help with the Tsunami relief? How about when we (by "we" I mean myself and immediate coworkers) were instrumental in finding the dhow we knew had 3 tons of Hashish on it? And these guys weren't harmless dope peddlers either, they were Bad Men(tm).
And finally...there are only 4 CTMs that have my NEC in the Navy, so they wouldn't let me cross-rate if I wanted to. 
Also, the guv'ment doesn't like spending money on getting you a security clearence then booting you down to a job where you don't need it.
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30-08-2005 13:37
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