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MOBIUS is offline MOBIUS
King
Prifysgol Caerdydd
Dec 1999
time: 15:37
  Old Post 23-08-2005 08:02 Visit MOBIUS's homepage!
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Sunnis threaten civil war as Iraq constitution deadline extended Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote:
In a dramatic midnight turnaround, Iraq’s ruling Shia pulled back from threats to force the new constitution through parliament, putting off a vote to buy more time to win over Sunni Arabs who had threatened civil war if it was passed.

Shia and Kurdish leaders had agreed to a draft constitution laying out plans for a federal system that would transform the Iraqi state into a loose federation of regions with a weak central government.

Sunni leaders reacted with fury at the proposition, claiming that it would inflame the insurgency and trigger civil war and vowed to defeat the charter at a national referendum later this year unless demands for federalism were dropped.

But Shia leaders, determined not to miss the deadline, presented the draft to parliament minutes before midnight. To loud applause, the speaker announced that the deadline had been met. Then to stunned confusion, he dismissed parliament without a vote, calling for three more days of talks between political leaders. But as the events of the evening sank in, it remained unclear what could be done to win over the recalcitrant Sunnis.

Moments after parliament was adjourned, Sunnis issued a statement rejecting the draft because a consensus had not been reached. “If it passes, there will be an uprising in the streets,” Saleh al-Mutlak, a senior Sunni negotiator, said. He added that further blockage of a deal could trigger elections to a new interim assembly, a scenario that most parties — particularly the Shias — wish to avoid.

Even after printing their final draft, Shia and Kurd leaders had continued trying to win over the Sunnis, but officials said the sticking points had been federalism, the mechanism for allowing regions to devolve and deBaathification — the banning of former regime figures from public office.

Sunnis vehemently opposed attempts by the Shias and the Kurds to carve out their own powerful federal regions, fearing they could be left high and dry while the oil-rich North and South go their own way. They also fear that deBaathification could keep their minority out of official positions.

The new delay will come as a bitter disappointment to Washington, which had exerted heavy pressure on the factions to reach an agreement and dropped its opposition to a strong role for Islam, leading to accusations of a sell-out. The Bush Administration badly needs to demonstrate political progress in Iraq to counter growing domestic opposition to the costly military occupation.

The Administration hoped that involving Iraq’s Sunni minority in the constitutional drafting process would help to bring it back into the political mainstream and sap the violent insurgency.

But that prospect looked remote last night as Sunnis threatened to derail the draft constitution should it make it through parliament with the issues of contention unchanged. “All the history of Iraq’s problems is contained in this constitution — racism, sectarianism and secession,” Hussein Shukur al-Falluji, a Sunni delegate, said. “If they pass this constitution, then the rebellion will reach its peak.”

“We will not be silent,” Soha Allawi, another Sunni Arab member of the drafting committee, said. “We will campaign to tell both Sunnis and Shias to reject the constitution, which has elements that will lead to the break up of Iraq and civil war.”

The Shias would have faced little difficulty ramming the constitution through a parliament they control, but almost certainly backed off because the Sunnis could defeat the draft in October’s scheduled referendum. If two thirds of voters in at least three provinces reject the document, the constitution will fail. The Sunnis have such a majority in three provinces and have started a vigorous “no” campaign.

The draft was also said to reflect a Kurdish and American compromise over Islamic law. “Islam is a main source for legislation and it is not permitted to legislate anything that conflicts with the fixed principles of the rules of Islam,” it read.

But it also apparently insists that all laws must respect “democracy and human rights”, a phrase insisted on by America.

Kurdish leaders said that they backed the agreement, saying that the provision on federalism was enough to satisfy their demands for guarantees that they would retain the broad autonomy they already have in the North.

The Kurds and the Shias also agreed to distribute Iraq’s oil and other natural wealth “according to the needs” of the central Government and the provinces. The status of the oil-rich city of Kirkuk will be determined by the end of 2007.

Last night’s deadline was the second after negotiators failed to agree last week, to the disappointment of the Americans. Parliament then voted to extend deliberations by a week.


The Times

Oh dear.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:37
  Old Post 23-08-2005 08:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Iraq has never had a civil war IIRC, and there's not that much reason for them to start now.

DanS is offline DanS
Emperor
Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:37
  Old Post 23-08-2005 08:51 Visit DanS's homepage!
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Got spare money?

.

Last edited by DanS on 23-08-2005 at 09:14

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:37
  Old Post 23-08-2005 08:53
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cool

I'll get the popcorn and park myself in front of cnn

and it'll pretty much all be bush's fault

each death that is the result of his actions is just one more degree hotter it'll be when he meets up with reagan in hell

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:37
  Old Post 23-08-2005 08:56
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Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The glee in the OP is palpable.

shawnmmcc is offline shawnmmcc
Prince

Jan 2003
time: 00:37
  Old Post 23-08-2005 09:46
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I - told - you - so. I hope they can go with a Federal System; i.e. Switzerland. IMHO that is the only real hope to avoid Civil War. Kismet, other Americans will keep getting to bury family members. It is so f**king sad and tragic that this has been so badly mishandled, for Iraqis and Americans. Saddam was worse, unless a full-blown civil war occurs.

GePap is offline GePap
King
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:37
  Old Post 23-08-2005 09:50
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Why would the Sunni ever back a Federal system? They get sand, sand, more sand, and a bit of sand. The Kurds and Shiites get oil.

What the US could do was always limited. This problem was going to be here anyways, whether the country had been secured or not.

The sad part is that the amdin. does not seem to have ever realized that.

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
Emperor
United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:37
  Old Post 23-08-2005 10:24 Visit Ted Striker's homepage!
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It's really sad that us on a damn internet board can see this stuff plain as day but the most powerful man in the world and his entire staff has absolutley no clue.


There was a story put out the other day about how Colin Powell's State Department issued several warnings to both the Administration and the Pentagon that the post invasion plans were terribly inadequate and they needed to be addressed.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:37
  Old Post 23-08-2005 10:54
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What are all you pro-defeat in Iraq folks so excited about? Seems like a pretty promising sign that the Shia and Kurds were willing to delay a vote on the constitution in order to make an attempt to allay the concerns of the Sunnis. Very responsible behavior.

Lancer is offline Lancer
Emperor
Oregon Coast, USA! or Bohol, Philippines!
Apr 1999
time: 05:37
  Old Post 23-08-2005 13:51
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If the Iraqis prove they can't run their country I'm sure we'll suck it dry, I mean run it for them.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:37
  Old Post 23-08-2005 13:56
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I don't know if I like that or not:

quote:
The Kurds and the Shias also agreed to distribute Iraq’s oil and other natural wealth “according to the needs” of the central Government and the provinces. The status of the oil-rich city of Kirkuk will be determined by the end of 2007.

I don't know if it is a genuine attempt to let the whole country benefit from oil, or if it is just some useless talk.
I think many problems would be defused if a federal structure existed, but where the central government was the owner and manager of all oil. More than a problem of political distribution of power, I am under the impression that the real difficulty is about the oil money.

dannubis is offline dannubis
Chieftain
Ghent
Apr 2002
time: 06:37
  Old Post 23-08-2005 14:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
What are all you pro-defeat in Iraq folks so excited about? ...


pro defeat ????

binTravkin is offline binTravkin
Emperor
Lord of Progress of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Jan 2004
time: 07:37
  Old Post 23-08-2005 14:49
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quote:
What are all you pro-defeat in Iraq folks so excited about? Seems like a pretty promising sign that the Shia and Kurds were willing to delay a vote on the constitution in order to make an attempt to allay the concerns of the Sunnis. Very responsible behavior.



Do you really think they're children to be scaled by "responsible/irresponsible" scale?

binTravkin is offline binTravkin
Emperor
Lord of Progress of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Jan 2004
time: 07:37
  Old Post 23-08-2005 14:52
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And generally I think it's just a part of a bigger plan - US specially had made the post-war situation unbeareable, to later, when it comes to violence, step in and say:

"Guys, as you're too stupid, childish and irresposible different to rule yourselves, we will rule you and control your oil resources ultimately ensure your nation's prosperity."

binTravkin is offline binTravkin
Emperor
Lord of Progress of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Jan 2004
time: 07:37
  Old Post 23-08-2005 16:42
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quote:
Doesn't it concern you that Iraq is threatening to lurch into civil war due to policies you support?


You know, there are people which never understand things unless they happen with themselves..

OzzyKP is offline OzzyKP
King
Rockville, MD
Oct 1999
time: 00:37
  Old Post 23-08-2005 17:23 Visit OzzyKP's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
I don't know if I like that or not:

quote:
The Kurds and the Shias also agreed to distribute Iraq’s oil and other natural wealth “according to the needs” of the central Government and the provinces. The status of the oil-rich city of Kirkuk will be determined by the end of 2007.

I don't know if it is a genuine attempt to let the whole country benefit from oil, or if it is just some useless talk.
I think many problems would be defused if a federal structure existed, but where the central government was the owner and manager of all oil. More than a problem of political distribution of power, I am under the impression that the real difficulty is about the oil money.


That's exactly what I was thinking.

Atahualpa is offline Atahualpa
Emperor
Hawthrone
Mar 1999
time: 06:37
  Old Post 23-08-2005 17:36 Visit Atahualpa's homepage!
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We should extract all the oil quickly, so that this terribly difficult factor is eliminated

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:37
  Old Post 23-08-2005 17:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Atahualpa
We should extract all the oil quickly, so that this terribly difficult factor is eliminated


binTravkin is offline binTravkin
Emperor
Lord of Progress of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Jan 2004
time: 07:37
  Old Post 23-08-2005 17:47
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quote:
We should extract all the oil quickly, so that this terribly difficult factor is eliminated




Actually if we pumped all oil to US just to get rid of their aggression, I bet they'll go for uranium then another resource then another until finally they start "liberation campaigns" in Antarctic (I have read it holds considerable resources) and then on Moon.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:37
  Old Post 23-08-2005 17:48
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You know the real shame of this constitution is that it exhaults Islam and says no law can violate Islamic principles (creating a high committee to make sure of it) and subjugates womens' rights. It's like we've gone in, taken out Saddam, and installed Iran, Jr.!

binTravkin is offline binTravkin
Emperor
Lord of Progress of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Jan 2004
time: 07:37
  Old Post 23-08-2005 17:51
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quote:
You know the real shame of this constitution is that it exhaults Islam and says no law can violate Islamic principles (creating a high committee to make sure of it) and subjugates womens' rights. It's like we've gone in, taken out Saddam, and installed Iran, Jr.!


Hey, you just named 2 reasons why start another "liberation campaign" in Iraq!

The problem might be in lack of military testing areas (is that desert in US already so exhausted?).

MOBIUS is offline MOBIUS
King
Prifysgol Caerdydd
Dec 1999
time: 15:37
  Old Post 23-08-2005 17:55 Visit MOBIUS's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
You know the real shame of this constitution is that it exhaults Islam and says no law can violate Islamic principles (creating a high committee to make sure of it) and subjugates womens' rights. It's like we've gone in, taken out Saddam, and installed Iran, Jr.!


As I have said earlier (a few months back!), I think the ultimate irony will be if our 'democracy' in Iraq returns an Islamist Iraqi ally of Iran...

What will we do then, cause a coup?

It may have escaped people's attentions here but Iran is a democracy and they just voted a more hardline leader than ever...

binTravkin is offline binTravkin
Emperor
Lord of Progress of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Jan 2004
time: 07:37
  Old Post 23-08-2005 18:09
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quote:
It may have escaped people's attentions here but Iran is a democracy


It is easy to skip that if media only feeds you sh^t like "fundamentalist government" which makes you think about a bunch of mullahs with an archmullah or ubermullah or whatever they call it (sheikh-il-islam I guess) as their boss..


And, yes, you just named another reason why Iraq is a reusable testing ground for US military.

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:37
  Old Post 23-08-2005 18:38
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quote:
You know the real shame of this constitution is that it exhaults Islam and says no law can violate Islamic principles (creating a high committee to make sure of it) and subjugates womens' rights. It's like we've gone in, taken out Saddam, and installed Iran, Jr.!


Young Hip Imran

Gay Arafat

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:37
  Old Post 23-08-2005 18:42
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Hip Arafat

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:37
  Old Post 23-08-2005 18:45
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Dead Arafat

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:37
  Old Post 23-08-2005 18:49
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Say, did they find out what had he died from, in the end?

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:37
  Old Post 23-08-2005 18:50
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I think it was an STD.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:37
  Old Post 23-08-2005 18:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Az
Say, did they find out what had he died from, in the end?

An extremely quick googlesearch tells me that it was never made public.

Guynemer is offline Guynemer
King

Donate to the Red Cross
Gotta have more cowbell!
Mar 1999
time: 00:37
  Old Post 23-08-2005 19:00
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
I think it was an STD.


That would be so awesome if true.



On-topic, I said from the beginning of the Iraq War that removing Saddam would only be a good thing if he were eventually replaced with a less destructive/oppressive government.

At this point, it appears we might get, at best, a differently destructive/oppressive government.

 
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