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Thorn is offline Thorn
Warlord
Asheville, NC
May 1999
time: 00:37
Thumbs down  Old Post 24-08-2005 00:38 Visit Thorn's homepage!
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Troops deaths being used for Advertising Bush's War literally! Increase Your PM Length

quote:
Troops' Gravestones Have Pentagon Slogans

By DAVID PACE, Associated Press Writer 10 minutes ago

Unlike earlier wars, nearly all Arlington National Cemetery gravestones for troops killed in Iraq or Afghanistan are inscribed with the slogan-like operation names the Pentagon selected to promote public support for the conflicts.

Families of fallen soldiers and Marines are being told they have the option to have the government-furnished headstones engraved with "Operation Enduring Freedom" or "Operation Iraqi Freedom" at no extra charge, whether they are buried in Arlington or elsewhere. A mock-up shown to many families includes the operation names.

The vast majority of military gravestones from other eras are inscribed with just the basic, required information: name, rank, military branch, date of death and, if applicable, the war and foreign country in which the person served.

Families are supposed to have final approval over what goes on the tombstones. That hasn't always happened.

Nadia and Robert McCaffrey, whose son Patrick was killed in Iraq in June 2004, said "Operation Iraqi Freedom" ended up on his government-supplied headstone in Oceanside, Calif., without family approval.

"I was a little taken aback," Robert McCaffrey said, describing his reaction when he first saw the operation name on Patrick's tombstone. "They certainly didn't ask my wife; they didn't ask me." He said Patrick's widow told him she had not been asked either.

"In one way, I feel it's taking advantage to a small degree," McCaffrey said. "Patrick did not want to be there, that is a definite fact."

The owner of the company that has been making gravestones for Arlington and other national cemeteries for nearly two decades is uncomfortable, too.

"It just seems a little brazen that that's put on stones," said Jeff Martell, owner of Granite Industries of Vermont. "It seems like it might be connected to politics."

The Department of Veterans Affairs says it isn't. "The headstone is not a PR purpose. It is to let the country know and the people that visit the cemetery know who served this country and made the country free for us," VA official Steve Muro said.

Since 1997, the government has been paying for virtually everything inscribed on the gravestones. Before that, families had to pay the gravestone makers separately for any inscription beyond the basics.

It wasn't until the invasion of Iraq in March 2003 that the department instructed national cemetery directors and funeral homes across the country to advise families of fallen soldiers and Marines that they could have operation names like "Enduring Freedom" or "Iraqi Freedom" included on the headstones.

VA officials say neither the Pentagon nor White House exerted any pressure to get families to include the operation names. They say families always had the option of including information like battle or operation names, but didn't always know it.

"It's just the right thing to do and it always has been, but it hasn't always been followed," said Dave Schettler, director of the VA's memorial programs service.

VA officials say they don't know how many families of the nearly 2,000 soldiers and Marines who have died in Iraq or Afghanistan have opted to include the operation names.

At Arlington, the nation's most prestigious national cemetery, all but a few of the 193 gravestones of Iraq and Afghanistan dead carry the operation names. War casualties are also buried in many of the 121 other national cemeteries and numerous state and private graveyards.

The interment service supervisor at Arlington, Vicki Tanner, said cemetery representatives show families a mock-up of the headstone with "Operation Iraqi Freedom" or "Operation Enduring Freedom" already included, and ask their approval.

Former Sen. Max Cleland, D-Ga., who lost both legs and an arm in Vietnam and headed the Veterans Administration under President Carter, called the practice "a little bit of glorified advertising."

"I think it's a little bit of gilding the lily," Cleland said, while insisting that he's not criticizing families who want that information included.

"Most of the headstones out there at Arlington and around the nation just say World War II or Korea or Vietnam, one simple statement," he said. "It's not, shall we say, a designated theme or a designated operation by somebody in the Pentagon. It is what it is. And I think there's power in simplicity."

The Pentagon in the late 1980s began selecting operation names with themes that would help generate public support for conflicts.

Gregory C. Sieminski, an Army officer writing in a 1995 Army War College publication, said the Pentagon decision to call the 1989 invasion of Panama "Operation Just Cause" initiated a trend of naming operations "with an eye toward shaping domestic and international perceptions about the activities they describe."

Mainline veterans groups are taking the change in stride. American Legion spokesman Donald Mooney said the organization hasn't heard any complaints from its members.

"I'm concerned that we do what the families want," said Bob Wallace, executive director of Veterans of Foreign Wars. "I don't think there's any critical motivation behind this."


How low can they go, sinking to these levels... outrageous!

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 00:40
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I have a suggestion for one:

"America hasn't fought a just war in 60 years"

Odin is offline Odin
Prince
Biology Nerd at Minnesota State University Moorhead
Sep 2000
time: 23:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 01:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Sava
I have a suggestion for one:

"America hasn't fought a just war in 60 years"


Korea wasn't a just war?

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 01:02
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Sava cares about minor details like facts?

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 01:18
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fine 50 years

Edan is offline Edan
Chieftain

Dec 2002
time: 00:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 01:45
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Afghanistan wasn't a just war?

Edan is offline Edan
Chieftain

Dec 2002
time: 00:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 01:47
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Re: Troops deaths being used for Advertising Bush's War literally! Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote:
Originally posted by Thorn


How low can they go, sinking to these levels... outrageous!


Apart from the family that didn't get approval (and I think it's feasable that that was a buearcratic error), I don't think it's outrageous. Tactless, yes. But not outrageous.

Tattila the Hun is offline Tattila the Hun
Prince
Tornio
Oct 2002
time: 07:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 01:51
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Why don't they just inscribe Halliburton or something to the stones?

There's an idea. Sponsorship! Can't afford a headstone? Pepsi Co. is happy to help... For a small token for their caring.

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 01:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Edan
Afghanistan wasn't a just war?

America's effort in Afghanistan isn't really a war...

the number of troops the US had there at the height of the campaign was less than the number of police officers in Manhattan.

it's more of a half-assed attempt to make the american public think they are doing something about bin laden

Verto is offline Verto

King

Mar 2002
time: 23:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 02:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Sava

America's effort in Afghanistan isn't really a war...

the number of troops the US had there at the height of the campaign was less than the number of police officers in Manhattan.

it's more of a half-assed attempt to make the american public think they are doing something about bin laden


You are so full of bull ****. Your first assertion is proven wrong, so you take off a decade. That assertion was still wrong, so then you create some bullshit about how a war isnt a war unless the number of military personnel involved > the number of Manhatten police officers? Simply because America was able to take advantage of technology as well as international support, Afghanistan is not a war, merely a half-assed PR attempt.

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 02:01
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quote:

Korea wasn't a just war?


Why was it more than vietnam? because it got UN support?

lord of the mark is offline lord of the mark
Emperor
FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 02:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Az
quote:

Korea wasn't a just war?


Why was it more than vietnam? because it got UN support?


first explain why vietnam was unjust (im not saying whether it was or wasnt) and then we can discuss whethe Korea fit those criteria.

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 02:12
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It was for propping a bad government.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 02:13
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As opposed to the DPRK?

Last edited by Kuciwalker on 24-08-2005 at 02:31

lord of the mark is offline lord of the mark
Emperor
FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 02:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Az
It was for propping a bad government.


ergo WW2 was unjust, since the govt of Poland in 1939 was a bad govt, and you imply that any war to "prop a bad govt" is unjust.

Try again.

lord of the mark is offline lord of the mark
Emperor
FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 02:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker
As opposed to the PDRK?


see in VN, one can make the case that the Viet Minh were a genuine national movement, and the govt of the RVN was just a bunch of French colloborators, and that the NVA attempt to expand was supported by most South Vietnamese, hence we were intervening in a civil war, in a way that prolonged it, and on the side that few there supported. At least thats the argument.

I dont think it applies to Korea very well. The govt of NK was installed by the Russians as part of the post war temporary settlement, it didnt achieve power by revolution as the Viet Minh did. It had no superior legitimacy to the South Korean govt. When Nkor invaded, it was aggression, and the UNSC was within its rights to declare it so.

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 02:27
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quote:

ergo WW2 was unjust, since the govt of Poland in 1939 was a bad govt, and you imply that any war to "prop a bad govt" is unjust.


Bad, in relation to what would follow.

As to DPRK, it was the better government for more than a decade after the war, who knows how would things end if it took the whole peninsula.

Verto is offline Verto

King

Mar 2002
time: 23:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 02:38
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And back to the original article quoted, I don't find what is happening to be worthy of a 'poly Bush bashing tirade.

Sava is offline Sava
King
GO GO GO!
Mar 2001
time: 23:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 02:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Verto
Afghanistan is not a war, merely a half-assed PR attempt.
QFT!

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 02:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Verto
And back to the original article quoted, I don't find what is happening to be worthy of a 'poly Bush bashing tirade.


ANYTHING is worthy of a 'poly Bush bashing tirade.

GePap is offline GePap
King
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 02:55
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The tactic is tactless.

And no, vietnam was not a just war, and the US did not go to war in WW2 for Poland, we entered into WW2 because Japan attacked us and Germany and italy declared war on the US.

So so much for that crappy comparison.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 03:02
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quote:
And no, vietnam was not a just war, and the US did not go to war in WW2 for Poland, we entered into WW2 because Japan attacked us and Germany and italy declared war on the US.

So so much for that crappy comparison.


Som much for your reading comprehension.

lotm was attacking the argument that a war to support a bad government is necessarily unjust, by pointing out the WWII (which did not, in fact, start in 1941 with Pearl Harbor but instead in 1939 with the invasion of Poland, FYI) was started to support an unjust government (Poland's), but was clearly a just war.

GePap is offline GePap
King
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 03:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuciwalker

Som much for your reading comprehension.

lotm was attacking the argument that a war to support a bad government is necessarily unjust, by pointing out the WWII (which did not, in fact, start in 1941 with Pearl Harbor but instead in 1939 with the invasion of Poland, FYI) was started to support an unjust government (Poland's), but was clearly a just war.


WW2 was started to maintain the European balance of power and in order to carry out clear aggreements (alliences) between governments.

Calling a war "Just" is a moral and/or ethical term, unless you want to go into the specific Catholic definition of "Just War".

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 03:09
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quote:
WW2 was started to maintain the European balance of power and in order to carry out clear aggreements (alliences) between governments.


Tell it to lotm. My point was that you had no clue what he was talking about.

DeathByTheSword is offline DeathByTheSword
King
soon to be a major religion
Nov 2001
time: 05:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 05:13
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quote:
Apart from the family that didn't get approval (and I think it's feasable that that was a buearcratic error), I don't think it's outrageous. Tactless, yes. But not outrageous.


QFT

ok to recap:

everybody can probably say here that korea was a 'just' war
most people here will say Vietnam was a 'unjust' war
afghanistan was in most peoples eyes a war but for most people outside the US probably a 'unjust' war
Iraq was/is a war which everybody will agree on I think but most people in the US and outside (not counting 'poly) will say it was a 'unjust' war....now stop bickering and talk about the tombstones

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
Emperor
United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 08:22 Visit Ted Striker's homepage!
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This is horrible, those headstones should be changed at the family's request.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 10:06 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Odin
Korea wasn't a just war?


No.

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 11:35
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This thread is boring. Everyone agrees that it's stupid to place propoganda stuff at headstones.

Odin is offline Odin
Prince
Biology Nerd at Minnesota State University Moorhead
Sep 2000
time: 23:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 18:05
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara


No.



*teleports Che to North Korea*

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 18:08
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quote:

*teleports Che to North Korea*


Better to NK circa 59' than to SK circa 59', smartypants.

I

 
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