Apolyton Archive  |  Preserved copy of the Apolyton Civilization Site and its forums as they stood in September 2005. Read-only; nothing here can be posted to or replied to.  |  Forum index |  About this archive |  The 1998–2001 UBB forums
Today on Apolyton WARDELL INTERVIEW PROMO A.C.S. HISTORY CHAPTER 4 GET CIV4 /w FREE PLUS! A.C.S. PHOTO GALLERY GET A.O.M. V1.1
Apolyton Civilization Forums
main| civ2| civ3| civ4| smac| ctp2| ron| moo3| galciv| galciv2| alt| about|
ApolytonPLUS | register | search | faq | new posts | pm (-/-) | upload | members
hall of fame new! | civgroups | civgroups news | interviews | the column | radio | chat | directory | news | store | PLUS
Apolyton Civilization Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Forums > Miscellaneous > Off-Topic > Geeks vs Suits
Show a Printable Version | Email This Page to Someone! | Receive updates to this thread | Report this to Apolyton news!
20.Sep: FOURTH CHAPTER IN `HISTORY OF...` PUBLISHED
13.Sep: NEWS ON THE FLY
06.Sep: APOLYTON DONATES TO HURRICANE RELIEF

bottom of page
   - CIVILIZATION 3 $9.99 - CIVILIZATION 2 from $6.95 - CIVILIZATION 2 from $4.25 - ALPHA CENTAURI + ALIEN CROSSFIRE (laptop collection) from $19.99 - ALPHA CENTAURI PC $9.99 -->
Author
Thread    < Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 11:13 Visit Asher's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#1 Report this post to a moderator
Geeks vs Suits Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Found a great article.

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/Stupidity.html

quote:


Rick Chapman is In Search of Stupidity

By Joel Spolsky
Friday, August 01, 2003
Printer Friendly Version

(This is the foreword to Rick Chapman's new book, In Search of Stupidity.)

In every high tech company I’ve known, there’s a war going on, between the geeks and the suits.

Before you start reading this great new book full of propaganda from software marketing wizard and über-suit Rick Chapman, let me take a moment to tell you what the geeks think.

Play along with me for a minute, will you?

Please imagine the most stereotypically pale, Jolt-drinking, Chinese-food-eating, video-game-playing, slashdot-reading Linux-command-line-dwelling dork. Since this is just a stereotype, you should be free to imagine either a runt or a kind of chubby fellow, but in either case this is not the kind of person who plays football with his high school pals when he visits mom for Thanksgiving. Also, since he’s a stereotype, I shall not have to make complicated excuses for making him a him.

This is what our stereotypical programmer thinks: “Microsoft makes inferior products, but they have superior marketing, so everybody buys their stuff.”

Ask him what he thinks about the marketing people in his own company. “They’re really stupid. Yesterday I got into a big argument with this stupid sales chick in the break room and after ten minutes it was totally clear that she had no clue what the difference between 802.11a and 802.11b is. Duh!”

What do marketing people do, young geek? “I don’t know. They play golf with customers or something, when they’re not making me correct their idiot spec sheets. If it was up to me I’d fire ‘em all.”

A nice fellow named Jeffrey Tarter used to publish an annual list of the hundred largest personal computer software publishers called the Soft-letter 100. Here’s what the top ten looked like in 1984[1]:

code:
Rank Company Annual Revenues #1 Micropro International $60,000,000 #2 Microsoft Corp. $55,000,000 #3 Lotus $53,000,000 #4 Digital Research $45,000,000 #5 VisiCorp $43,000,000 #6 Ashton-Tate $35,000,000 #7 Peachtree $21,700,000 #8 MicroFocus $15,000,000 #9 Software Publishing $14,000,000 #10 Broderbund $13,000,000



OK, Microsoft is number 2, but it is one of a handful of companies with roughly similar annual revenues.

Now let’s look at the same list for 2001.
code:
Rank Company Annual Revenues #1 Microsoft Corp. $23,845,000,000 #2 Adobe $1,266,378,000 #3 Novell $1,103,592,000 #4 Intuit $1,076,000,000 #5 Autodesk $926,324,000 #6 Symantec $790,153,000 #7 Network Associates $745,692,000 #8 Citrix $479,446,000 #9 Macromedia $295,997,000 #10 Great Plains $250,231,000


Whoa. Notice, if you will, that every single company except Microsoft has disappeared from the top ten. Also notice, please, that Microsoft is so much larger than the next largest player, it’s not even funny. Adobe would double in revenues if they could just get Microsoft’s soda pop budget.

The personal computer software market is Microsoft. Microsoft’s revenues, it turns out, make up 69% of the total revenues of all the top 100 companies combined.

This is what we’re talking about, here.

Is this just superior marketing, as our imaginary geek claims? Or the result of an illegal monopoly? (Which begs the question: how did Microsoft get that monopoly? You can’t have it both ways.)

According to Rick Chapman, the answer is simpler: Microsoft was the only company on the list that never made a fatal, stupid mistake. Whether this was by dint of superior brainpower or just dumb luck, the biggest mistake Microsoft made was the dancing paperclip. And how bad was that, really? We ridiculed them, shut it off, and went back to using Word, Excel, Outlook, and Internet Explorer every minute of every day. But for every other software company that once had market leadership and saw it go down the drain, you can point to one or two giant blunders that steered the boat into an iceberg. Micropro fiddled around rewriting the printer architecture instead of upgrading their flagship product, WordStar. Lotus wasted a year and a half shoehorning 123 to run on 640kb machines; by the time they were done Excel was shipping and 640kb machines were a dim memory. Digital Research wildly overcharged for CP/M-86 and lost a chance to be the de-facto standard for PC operating systems. VisiCorp sued themselves out of existence. Ashton-Tate never missed an opportunity to piss off dBase developers, poisoning the fragile ecology that is so vital to a platform vendor’s success.

I’m a programmer, of course, so I tend to blame the marketing people for these stupid mistakes. Almost all of them revolve around a failure of non-technical business people to understand basic technology facts. When Pepsi-pusher John Sculley was developing the Apple Newton, he didn’t know something that every computer science major in the country knows: handwriting recognition is not possible. This was at the same time that Bill Gates was hauling programmers into meetings begging them to create a single rich text edit control that could be reused in all their products. Put Jim Manzi (the suit who let the MBAs take over Lotus) in that meeting and he would be staring blankly. “What’s a rich text edit control?” It never would have occurred to him to take technological leadership because he didn’t grok the technology; in fact, the very use of the word grok in that sentence would probably throw him off.

If you ask me, and I’m biased, no software company can succeed unless there is a programmer at the helm. So far the evidence backs me up. But many of these boneheaded mistakes come from the programmers themselves. Netscape’s monumental decision to rewrite their browser instead of improving the old code base cost them several years of Internet time, during which their market share went from around 90% to about 4%, and this was the programmers’ idea. Of course, the nontechnical and inexperienced management of that company had no idea why this was a bad idea. There are still scads of programmers who defend Netscape’s ground-up rewrite. “The old code really sucked, Joel!” Yeah, uh-huh. Such programmers should be admired for their love of clean code, but they shouldn’t be allowed within 100 feet of any business decisions, since it’s obvious that clean code is more important to them than shipping, uh, software.

So I’ll concede to Rick a bit and say that if you want to be successful in the software business, you have to have a management team that thoroughly understands and loves programming, but they have to understand and love business, too. Finding a leader with strong aptitude in both dimensions is difficult, but it’s the only way to avoid making one of those fatal mistakes that Rick catalogs lovingly in this book. So read it, chuckle a bit, and if there’s a stupidhead running your company, get your résumé in shape and start looking for a house in Redmond.


It's similar to an argument I've made here before -- can tech companies successfully have non-tech people making decisions at the top?

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 11:16
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#2 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
#10 Broderbund $13,000,000


I remember them! They published Myst

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
Emperor
United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 11:34 Visit Ted Striker's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#3 Report this post to a moderator
Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I wonder where Novell is now.

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
Emperor
United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 11:38 Visit Ted Striker's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#4 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Being a techie, I have to say I'm biased in favor of the technical side making the decisions.

I've seen countless blowouts because of the higher ups not understanding the underlying technology.

I've seen marketing oversell their product and then lack the abilty to support that product.

On the other hand, software companies are not going to grow without a strong sales force. If nothing else, the sales team speaks that silly language that the managers, who have all the cash, speak.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 11:39
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#5 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote:
Originally posted by Ted Striker
I wonder where Novell is now.


Hopefully festering in hell.

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 11:41
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#6 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Man, I can't wait to get into this stupid world. :/

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic

Donate to the Red Cross
The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
May 1999
time: 13:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 11:50
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#7 Report this post to a moderator
Full PM-box? Change here!

quote:

According to Rick Chapman, the answer is simpler: Microsoft was the only company on the list that never made a fatal, stupid mistake.


That is so not true. For starters, we have MS-DOS 4. Microsoft survived because it had a monopoly. The second exhibit is named "Multiplan." Falling out with IBM could have been the biggest lethal mistake, but IBM made a similar giant blunder to counterbalance it.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
Apolyton Duke of Off-Topic

Donate to the Red Cross
The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
May 1999
time: 13:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 11:51
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#8 Report this post to a moderator
Put an end to popups!

quote:
Originally posted by Ted Striker
I wonder where Novell is now.


Suing the life out of SCO.

loinburger is offline loinburger
Emperor
Sweet Sauce Jones
Jul 1999
time: 00:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 17:01 Visit loinburger's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#9 Report this post to a moderator
Re: Geeks vs Suits Get a bigger avatar today!

quote:
Originally posted by Asher
It's similar to an argument I've made here before -- can tech companies successfully have non-tech people making decisions at the top?

For the most part, no, but I think that there will always be a niche market for "cute" tech products, meaning that Apple will continue to survive with Jobs and without Wozniak.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 18:26 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#10 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Microsoft survived because it had a monopoly.


No, they survived because they had an illegal monopoly, and threatened to withhold selling their software to any company that didn't pony up a liscensing fee for every PC they sold, regardless of whether MS-DOS was on it or not.

But the government merely slapped them on the wrist for this and told them not to do it again, and so there's no use whining about it. What's done is done. XP is a fine OS, and many MS products are really quite good now.

Last edited by chegitz guevara on 24-08-2005 at 18:37

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 18:37 Visit Asher's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#11 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
That is so not true. For starters, we have MS-DOS 4. Microsoft survived because it had a monopoly. The second exhibit is named "Multiplan." Falling out with IBM could have been the biggest lethal mistake, but IBM made a similar giant blunder to counterbalance it.


How did MS get the monopoly?

Kontiki is offline Kontiki
Settler
Canada
Aug 2001
time: 00:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 18:39
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#12 Report this post to a moderator
Re: Geeks vs Suits Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote:
Originally posted by Asher
It's similar to an argument I've made here before -- can tech companies successfully have non-tech people making decisions at the top?


Depends on what you mean by "non-tech" people. It's really no different in any other industry - if your top people don't have a good grasp of the industry, you're not going to succeed. I don't know if you necessarily need to be a programmer to run a tech company, but you'd better have a damn solid understanding of the technology you are creating and the competitive environment you're in. Which, again, is really no different from the banking, retail, auto manufacturing or most other industries.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 18:39
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#13 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote:
It's similar to an argument I've made here before -- can tech companies successfully have non-tech people making decisions at the top?


Similar, but not exactly. I think this guy's argument is better, which is:

"you have to have a management team that thoroughly understands and loves programming, but they have to understand and love business, too"

You can't get away with just putting techies in charge.

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:37
  Old Post 24-08-2005 18:41 Visit Asher's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#14 Report this post to a moderator
Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Of course, that was what I had hoped to be implicit.

You get a techy who understands the technology, someone who is business-savvy, and put them in charge.

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
Emperor
United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:37
  Old Post 25-08-2005 10:02 Visit Ted Striker's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#15 Report this post to a moderator
Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Word up

A good of this was Informix versus Oracle

In the late 90s, Informix had a more stable and MUCH easier to use database engine than Oracle. Informix was tech heavy but Oracle was a monster with marketing and sales.

But Oracle eventually won the market because of their marketing savvy. The better product in this case didn't win out.

Oracle is overrated.

DB2 and Informix kick its ass any day of the week, except maybe in terms of third party cutsey plugin support.

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:37
  Old Post 25-08-2005 10:17 Visit Asher's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#16 Report this post to a moderator
Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

IBM invented the relational database, you'd think they can make the best.

Informix technology is finding its way slowly into DB2, as it was acquired by IBM a few years back.

Last edited by Asher on 25-08-2005 at 10:23

  < Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:37.
Apolyton Time is 00:37.
    top of page
Rate This Thread:
Forum Jump:
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
 




Contact Us - Apolyton Civilization Site - Support Us!

Building a better Apolyton through better information. Click here and take our poll!
Non-US visitors, click here!

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.0.3
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.

Page generated in 0.0431 seconds (91.21% PHP - 8.79% MySQL) with 30 queries
Page Loading Time:

Support Apolyton: Amazon USA | Amazon UK | Amazon DE | Amazon FR |
Support Apolyton and get FREE PLUS, Buy from Chips&Bits: Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition | Call to Power 2 | Civilization: The Boardgame | GURPS/ Alpha Centauri | Alpha Centauri | Civilization IV | Civilization III: Complete |


Front Page | Civilization IV | Civilization III | Civilization II | Call to Power II | Alpha Centauri | Master of Orion III
Rise of Nations | Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations II | Misc
Alt.Civs | Civ I | C:CtP I | About | News | Directory | Apolyton Store | Forums | Chat | Columns | Interviews | Newsletter
Scenario League | CSC | Clash of Civs | Spanish Site | CtP Maps | Cradle of Civ | WesW's Ctp1/2 Site | Civ3 Haven

apolyton.net | apolyton.com | civilization2.net | civilization3.net | civilization4.net | civilizationiv.info | calltopower.net | galciv.net | galciv2.net | moo3.net