27-08-2005 10:20									#1
	Is it time for the US to reinstate the draft? Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Okay, first off, this is not a troll.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. It seems to me that right now in the US you actually have fairly broad consensus on 4 points:

1) We fubarred Iraq
2) Pulling out now, instead of seeing things through, would only fubar Iraq even more
3) Staying means staying for years; even Rummy's saying that now
4) Our first mistake was not having enough troops to do the job; our current problem is not having enough troops to do the job; our problem if we stay will be not having enough troops to do the job.

Basically, I don't see how we "see Iraq through" without committing more troops, and I don't see how we get more troops without conscription.

So, to everybody who supports Bush's war, and everybody (like me) who opposed it but feels that we can't back out now without making things worse: is it time for a draft? And if not, why not?

	27-08-2005 10:30									#2
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In terms of troop numbers, a draft would be the only way to do it.


But Rufus, have you considered the economic cost? We're on track to spend $700 on this war. Vietnam (in today's dollars) cost $600. There is an excellent article on the cost of the war and how money is being wasted.

For example, the Air Force is using F-15s to conduct surveillance, when slower, cheaper planes are better suited to the job.

There is also a carrier battle group stationed off the coast of Iraq, bascially sitting there doing nothing.

I'm also afraid the admin would misuse the additional troops and mismanage them. We need a regime change but it needs to happen in the USA and the Pentagon lackeys that were promoted when Rumsfeld forced those who wouldn't tow the line out.

Personally I like the Saudi suggestion of sending in an Islamic peacekeeping force. I don't know where they think all those troops are going to materialize from though..

In terms of numbers the draft is the way to go, but the economic and political repurcussions are way too high I think.

	27-08-2005 10:32									#3
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quote: The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have already cost taxpayers $314 billion, and the Congressional Budget Office projects additional expenses of perhaps $450 billion over the next 10 years. That could make the combined campaigns, especially the war in Iraq, the most expensive military effort in the last 60 years, causing even some conservative experts to criticize the open-ended commitment to an elusive goal. The concern is that the soaring costs, given little weight before now, could play a growing role in U.S. strategic decisions because of the fiscal impact.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic...MNG5GDPEK31.DTL

	27-08-2005 10:34									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker But Rufus, have you considered the economic cost? We're on track to spend $700 on this war. Vietnam (in today's dollars) cost $600.

****, I spent more on new tires last week...





I assume those are supposed to be in billions.

	27-08-2005 10:38									#5
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I agree, Ted, the political costs would be so high it would never happen. I'm not sure I agree about the economic costs, since money spent on additional troops might be money saved on number of years they're committed. But you see what I mean about the numbers.

	27-08-2005 10:39									#6
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I don't think drafting would be a great idea.

However otherwise I do agree. I've also been saying this for what, like since the beginning of the war, that the amount of troops won't be able to stabilize the region enough for there to be good chance for rebuilding the infrastructure, to secure the key locations, basically enough to have the democracy rolling in.

And it'll be like this and worse, if there aren't going to be more troops..

And I agree, the worst is to first fo war, and then leave. That's the maximum destruction and misery. That's worse than no war, or brutal war.

This remains to be seen, I hope it happens though. It was played on semantics and emotions, to help Iraq and it's people, the rhetorics of bilateral action and doing things alone then, well.. time to walk the walk basically even though it's a shitty situation. But I think it's a worthy cause and I think Bush won't pull out anyone. I just hope he commits to this more, and we'll see.

	27-08-2005 10:41									#7
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quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs ****, I spent more on new tires last week... I assume those are supposed to be in billions.

	27-08-2005 10:44									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka I don't think drafting would be a great idea. However otherwise I do agree. I've also been saying this for what, like since the beginning of the war, that the amount of troops won't be able to stabilize the region enough for there to be good chance for rebuilding the infrastructure, to secure the key locations, basically enough to have the democracy rolling in. And it'll be like this and worse, if there aren't going to be more troops.. And I agree, the worst is to first fo war, and then leave. That's the maximum destruction and misery. That's worse than no war, or brutal war. This remains to be seen, I hope it happens though. It was played on semantics and emotions, to help Iraq and it's people, the rhetorics of bilateral action and doing things alone then, well.. time to walk the walk basically even though it's a shitty situation. But I think it's a worthy cause and I think Bush won't pull out anyone. I just hope he commits to this more, and we'll see.

But what does "commit to this more" mean? The administration is already 100% ideologically committed to it, and there's been no problem providing a financial commitment to it. The only realm where there is room for more commitment is troop strength. They need more troops, and they're not going to get them through volunteerism (recruitment is way, way, down). I don't see a viable alternative to a draft.

	27-08-2005 10:47									#9
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The Army told the Administration they needed minimum of 500,000 troops from the start. That's alot of dudes. Unless we can pay/con someone else to do it. Pakistan and India are out so it's like there is no other choice.

The Iraqi security forces need to be given full effort.

	27-08-2005 10:48									#10
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Commitment on ideological level means basically nothing when more troops is needed. Economical commitment means more though.. I guess that's reflection from ideological commitment.

Troops are needed. I don't know how much strength is devided around the globe, and how many are doing 'meaningless' tasks. All those should be used. It's the army.

If there's not enough volunteers, then there needs to be better campagns and propaganda, so that young folks join. That's it. Put more money into that thing, try some spins if it ain't working.

I'd leave the draft out of it for now. Why use draft, when Iraq or it's rebels and all that are not threatning US soil at all? I'd just forget about the draft and seek for other ways to boost up the strength.

	27-08-2005 10:52									#11
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Also, picking up with the draft again.. I mean this war is already unpopular, even in US. Establishing draft again is a death blow to the whole operation. There would be such an uprising, and it would give legit position on every Bush hater and opponent, that the war would be lost eventually. Too much opposion. That's what the draft would do. So at the end, I'd think it would cost even more that way, plus not even mentioning that then there would be people dying who wouldn't even join the army or want to go there. Soldiers are, at least now, volunteers, thus accept the possibility, and that's still different, even though it's sad when soldiers give their lives as well. But at least they give. When you are drafted, that life is taken away. That's how I see it. Most people might disagree.

	27-08-2005 10:57									#12
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Supercitizen, it's up to you to enlist and save the whole operation.

Before you had looked at the Marines but you couldn't get in. I bet with the recruiting shortages, some of those restrictions have been lifted.

	27-08-2005 10:58									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Commitment on ideological level means basically nothing when more troops is needed. Economical commitment means more though.. I guess that's reflection from ideological commitment. Troops are needed. I don't know how much strength is devided around the globe, and how many are doing 'meaningless' tasks. All those should be used. It's the army. If there's not enough volunteers, then there needs to be better campagns and propaganda, so that young folks join. That's it. Put more money into that thing, try some spins if it ain't working. I'd leave the draft out of it for now. Why use draft, when Iraq or it's rebels and all that are not threatning US soil at all? I'd just forget about the draft and seek for other ways to boost up the strength.

From what I can tell -- and I deal directly with US militaryofficers in my job -- troops not in Iraq right now are simply troops waiting to go to Iraq.

As for propoganda, the problem there is that spin only works if you can also hide reality; with daily bad news coming in from Iraq, spin seems to be played out.

Hence the problem.

	27-08-2005 11:03									#14
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What use would a draft do?

It would take months to make new, drafted units ready to do anything, and the military as a whole is moving to scrap the ability to house and care for that many service people. Second, given that how long we stay in Iraq is more a fucntion of what the Iraqis do that what we do (if Iraqis start fighting each other, look for a mush quicker Us exit), what happens if you draft 100,000 people, spend 6 months training them, and then, woops, mission over?

As for not having enough troops at the beginning, that was not an issue of how many troops there were in the military, but a concious choice by the pentagon to show how this war could be cheap, easy, and fast. That and the piss poor and arrogant diplomacy of the pre-war period.

	27-08-2005 11:09									#15
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Why are all these folks opposed to the war, also in support of a draft? It makes no sense to me.

	27-08-2005 11:12									#16
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Why are anti-war folks so pro-draft? Is it because they're simply ignorant of how the modern US military functions? Is it because an all-volunteer force makes it more difficult for them to rile up opposition to the war? Or is it for some other reason?

edit: I guess we had the same thought, Ben...

	27-08-2005 11:13									#17
	BK Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Why not?

	27-08-2005 11:15									#18
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It just sucks to have this administration running the show.

I honestly believe things would improve dramatically if a different administration was in managing this whole thing.

We desparatley need men like Colin Powell, and Senators Lugar and McCain's advice to be heeded.

Right now it's like the lights are on but nobody is home and they got the stereo up anyway so they can't hear what all the real experts are saying about how to handle things.

	27-08-2005 11:16									#19
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A volunteer force which is composed mainly of the poor (both urban and rural) might tend to seem more expendable to the powers that be than a draft army which (unless there's cheating on the scale of Viet Nam, i.e. Clinton and Dubya) might theoretically give the elite something to lose.

	27-08-2005 11:19									#20
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Good point

	27-08-2005 11:20									#21
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Ted, Maybe, but I don't think that's the situation anyway. And, I have some things I need to do first. However, I have said it and I say it again and hold to my word, if I move there (after I get my degree of course, and if I get that job first in there), I will volunteer to action if the country needs me, as I feel it is my duty. I served in here for free, I'd serve again, and get paid, without hesitation. Unless I get family going on, then I have to think again. If not, I'm where I'm needed.

Rufus, It's not impossible. It's just difficult to do.

	27-08-2005 11:23									#22
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Alright well good luck SC

	27-08-2005 11:27									#23
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God is on my side. I don't need luck.

Because after serving, you have done the greatest thing a man can do for their country. And that's when US would become my country. Before that, I'd just be a guest.

	27-08-2005 12:45									#24
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would larger numbers of troops during the initial invasion have helped much? It may have prevented looting of weapons and ammunition. But I'm cetain we'd still be facing a nasty insurgent problem. They don't want us there. Plain and simple.

	27-08-2005 12:54									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Why are all these folks opposed to the war, also in support of a draft? It makes no sense to me.

I suppose you're talking about me, though I haven't said anything about supporting a draft.

But let me make an analogy that your newly Catholic self is sure to get:

The war is like an unwanted pregnancy.

Bush shouldn't have f*cked the place to begin with. But the chickenhawks couldn't keep it in their pants, didn't bother to use the proper protection, and now we've got a seriously unwanted situation on our hands.

Many who said, "don't f*ck it to begin with," are now saying "abort! abort!" But some of us are saying, no, abortion would be an even greater sin; we have to do the right thing. And that actually means a greater commitment.

Get it?

I don't know if a draft is the answer. I'm just asking. But I do know that I can't see any way to increase our commitment to Iraq without a draft. Can you?

	27-08-2005 13:00									#26
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That's a damn good analogy Rufus.

In this case, I would not hit, or would have at least worn a condom.

	27-08-2005 13:08									#27
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The only answer to me is to keep the troop committment the same, and demand accountability for what is going on. Examples like the F15 above doing reconassaince, completely getting rid of a few carriers, closing down some unnecessary international bases, and other silly expenditures.

Take the savings and put it towards rapidly developing the homegrown Iraqi security forces. Which should have been done from day 1 but was incompetently mismanaged.

	27-08-2005 13:08									#28
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Not really, I was talking more towards Ted.

First off a couple more questions need to be asked.

1. Is it necessary to increase the commitment of troops in Iraq?

2. Even if it is necessary to increase the commitment, what is the level of commitment needed, and why?

3. Even with an appropriate increase, is it necessary to institute a draft to reach those goals?

All three have to be shown to be true before one can go to the draft.

	27-08-2005 13:10									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Not really, I was talking more towards Ted. First off a couple more questions need to be asked. 1. Is it necessary to increase the commitment of troops in Iraq? 2. Even if it is necessary to increase the commitment, what is the level of commitment needed, and why? 3. Even with an appropriate increase, is it necessary to institute a draft to reach those goals? All three have to be shown to be true before one can go to the draft.

Fair enough. It seems to me the answer to #1 is an obvious yes, but I don't have the expertise to answer 2 & 3.

	27-08-2005 13:10									#30
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I have heard many good things about the homegrown Iraqi police, in fighting terrorists themselves. They tend to be the fiercest enemies, since they are the ones who suffer most.