29-08-2005 04:44									#61
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I think he's doing some kind of student program there.

	29-08-2005 05:34									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo What's bringing you to the ME? business or pleasure?

I'm going to learn Arabic there.

	29-08-2005 05:36									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Ming That would be their choice... And at least it would be that... a choice! We do have a choice in this country, so the comparisons are silly at best.

Yep, that's the big difference. It breaks down to three related questions:

1) Is there a prevailing orthodoxy regarding one's way of life? In the KSA, yes, absolutely; in the US, not really.

2) Is the prevailing orthodoxy enforced at the point of a gun? In the KSA, yes; in the US, no.

3) If you differ from the prevailing orthodoxy, can you escape it without hiding who you are? In the KSA, no; in the US, sure -- just move to a place (San Francisco, the Bible Belt, an ex-urb, etc) where your way is accepted.

	29-08-2005 05:49									#64
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Why does anyone take the question seriously?

Last time I saw a guy in a Camel, was, well, NEVER. That alone shows how different the two places are.

	29-08-2005 06:30									#65
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Why does anyone take the question seriously? Last time I saw a guy in a Camel, was, well, NEVER. That alone shows how different the two places are.

maybe because they are taking a different question seriously than the one you are objecting to? The OP has already been clarified to refer to differences between the ability of ordinary citizens to change what their governments do rather than the exceedingly broad and silly question that the thread title suggests.

	30-08-2005 00:51									#66
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The (ideal) puropse of the state is to promote stabillity and protect the powerless from the powerful.

	30-08-2005 00:55									#67
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The irony then is that the state is the most powerful.

Stability and fairness.

	30-08-2005 00:56									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger The purpose of the state apparatus is to protect the interests of the ruling class. In the US it is the capitalists. In SA it is the royals (AFAIK). As a result, there are superficial differences, but fundamentally, they are the same. Of course, the US is much more sophisticated in its approach to control and/or manipulate the masses. The US appears to be much more open and the citizens have more freedoms, because the government does not need to rely on a draconian law based on religion to effect control. It seems though the US law has been becoming more draconian and the society becoming more religious based in the recent years.

Religiously adhearing to outdated Marxist dogma:

	30-08-2005 00:57									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin The irony then is that the state is the most powerful.

In a democracy, the citizenry IS the state.

	30-08-2005 01:30									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Odin In a democracy, the citizenry IS the state.

Sad thing that you wonīt find a real democracy anywhere on this planet

	30-08-2005 01:44									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Proteus_MST Sad thing that you wonīt find a real democracy anywhere on this planet

Well, I'm not a supporter of complete democracy, anyway, but a mix of democracy and meritocracy. Most modern "democracies" are a mixture of democracy and plutocracy. The ideal state would be a pure meritocracy, but that is unachivable because the less abled or educated would resent the highly able, educated elite.

	30-08-2005 01:59									#72
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Actually, I think you've hit upon a interesting point Proteus, I have noticed that for some, democracy appears to mean getting your own way all the time, and that somehow when this is not acheived, democratic credentials are brought into question.

The fact is, No country that I am aware of has a system of government which entitles its people to take a vote on every policy (including going to War) .. You simply get the chance to vote on a government every so often, and you have the opportunity to take into account all the actions of that government when you make your choice at the next election.

I wonder if a government that only took decisions based on referendum would ever be truelly representative of the people ?

	30-08-2005 02:03									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Well, I'm not a supporter of complete democracy, anyway, but a mix of democracy and meritocracy. Most modern "democracies" are a mixture of democracy and plutocracy. The ideal state would be a pure meritocracy, but that is unachivable because the less abled or educated would resent the highly able, educated elite.

Another problem in a meritocracy would probably be that you would have to pay your ministers very high wages so that it is profitable enough for those who are the best in their fields, to take over a ministry in your government (after all those who are the best often are also those who are the best paid )

But I agree in theory some form of meritocracy would probably be the best form of government for a state (it often annoys me that people who take over a ministry in germany donīt have to have any qualifications which makes them suited for the job [well, no other qualification than having influence in their party that is ])

	30-08-2005 02:08									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Az I don't think that anyone can deny that there is a huge difference between life in the US and Saudia.

Yeah, about 15000 km

Sheesh. Some people just don't know their geography.

	30-08-2005 02:10									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Ming You tell em KP... Some wish to give up and not even try... You are a classic example that people can make a difference. Some are just too lazy, and all they can do is whine like stuck pigs. This is a simple troll... if it was a real discussion, it would have compared SA to many other countries that have similar problems... not the US. Just some more US bashing... just a troll.

The person who posted it is from the US. Maybe he's more acutely aware of the situation in the US than in the rest of the world?

Not that the basis of this thread isn't pure stupidity, but don't try to label it US bashing.

More like US-centrism...

	30-08-2005 02:25									#76
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quote: Originally posted by The Viceroy Actually, I think you've hit upon a interesting point Proteus, I have noticed that for some, democracy appears to mean getting your own way all the time, and that somehow when this is not acheived, democratic credentials are brought into question. The fact is, No country that I am aware of has a system of government which entitles its people to take a vote on every policy (including going to War) .. You simply get the chance to vote on a government every so often, and you have the opportunity to take into account all the actions of that government when you make your choice at the next election. I wonder if a government that only took decisions based on referendum would ever be truelly representative of the people ?

I think Switzerland has a government with the strongest resemblance to direct democracy.
A lot of things on local and national level in Switzerland, including new laws seems to be decided by referenda. (including the famous idea, to make it mandatory that goods in Switzerland are transported by train instead of trucks).
But switzerland is a small country with a very homogenous population (as they have very strict laws concerning immigration),
so things implemented in switzerland may be more difficult to implement in larger states.

	30-08-2005 02:25									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Proteus_MST But I agree in theory some form of meritocracy would probably be the best form of government for a state (it often annoys me that people who take over a ministry in germany donīt have to have any qualifications which makes them suited for the job [well, no other qualification than having influence in their party that is ])

Political appointments to meritocratic positions:

	30-08-2005 03:15									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo maybe because they are taking a different question seriously than the one you are objecting to? The OP has already been clarified to refer to differences between the ability of ordinary citizens to change what their governments do rather than the exceedingly broad and silly question that the thread title suggests.

It's still a stupid question. Representative Democracy vs Absolute Monarchy. That is not much of a comparison.

Even if you state the US is an Oligarchy, and Oligarchy of a couple of million is "freer" than an Oligarchy of a couple of thousands.

	30-08-2005 03:24									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Religiously adhearing to outdated Marxist dogma:

Knee-jerkingly disapproving of Marxism without knowing anything about it.

	30-08-2005 08:03									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Odin Religiously adhearing to outdated Marxist dogma:

If you have a better explanation, I am all ears

	30-08-2005 08:14									#81
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Overall, Saudi Arabia may have more sand.
Any studies done on this?

	30-08-2005 08:44									#82
	Re: Is America any different then Saudi Arabia? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Yes. Next.