29-08-2005 12:14									#1
	Great Wonders in our times... Remove this text

Greetings members of the Horde.

As you are no doubt now aware we have a new member - Omnistar.

Omni was brought in to assist Rob in Hordeland Control, and as the various information that abounds he has certainly got his show on the road. A hearty well done Omni.

Omni has an idea, yes a plan for the recovery of our fine Nation from the prespective of Hordeland Control. This is good, I encourage thought and effort. He would like to see us build the Great Wonder - The Pyramids.

Thus we come to Ljube. Ljube is the Commanding Officer of the Red Guard Operations Department. It is his personal work that has brought us our current Great Wonder, the Statue of Zeus. Which we are all very proud of. Also I might add, this coming turn the Fourth Horse of the Apocalypse (ancient cavalry 5/5) completes its training and will head off to the war in the Bardlands

This thread is to allow these two fine men to present their cases. For us to weigh in with our questions, our comments, our hopes and desires.

We do have time for this discussion to have some effort, yet we do have decisions to make.

At the end of this discussion, we could end up in a poll, that is fine, and sorted. First we need to cover the facts.

Ladies and Gentlemen, Generals, Commanders, Ambassadors and Emissaries, lets give these gents the floor to lay out their cases....

Then give them all ya got

Attachment: kt & pyramids.jpg
This has been downloaded 29 time(s).

	29-08-2005 12:34									#2
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The Time of the Crusader thread link

could be useful...

	29-08-2005 13:48									#3
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Dear Hordesmen,


We need to change Knights Templar for Pyramids, as our main strength is with our UU the Keshiks, and the Templars wonder requires 60 or so turns to pay off. Sorry, that is too long to wait, and it costs us critical production base to build our beloved UU.

With the second largest cities with a pitiful population at 4, we got no other option. I admit I was a bit too heavy on the temples, but see the need for a couple of marketplaces, and after due thought we need a marketplace then Pyramids in Khans Blood Hall, not Knights Templar.

The Horde's strength was always mobility and speed, not to go slow to holy lands and build castles. Since we got only one real production center, and 10 very weak cities in terms of production and low population - demographics is the real challenge. Our terrain in the core, plains, and our lack of workers to link our empire, requires pyramids.
Militarily, we need to spend the forces we have, and we have yet to raise the needed gold to upgrade our horsemen to our beloved keshiks. This also nullifies the need for a second wonder, as only the capital can produce enough keshiks.

We got several problems

Too small population base prohibits settlers and workers

Too few workers prohibits tile improvements, roads and chopping forests (2 workers and a slave)

Too few settlers prohibits increasing production base and
free upkeep of units

Absolutely no granaries prohibits the economics of mass settlement and mass industrialization

Absolutely no marketplaces prohibits more research and to avoid budget deficit, and prohibits Keshik upgrades

Absolutely no temples reduces our line of sight, our access to high value tiles, prohibits growth of our cities and thus prohibits increased military production.

Absolutely no harbor prohibits safe naval trade and veteran galleys


The Remedy is this:

NORTH

Khan's Blood Hall:
Marketplace-Worker-Pyramids (We at Pop 12...)

Bokhara

Horseman-Horseman-Horseman-Horseman-Keshik

Red River Hill

Temple (logrush with Gertrude, later poprush)

Western

Bloodhue

Workers

Lortebekk

Workers

Ta-Tu

Horsemen-Horsemen-Horsemen-Horsemen-Keshiks

Eastern

Bloodview:
Marketplace-Horsemen-Horsemen-Horsemen-Keshiks

Brutallica

Workers

Southern

Filiolous Ala

Settlers

Bloodfort

Workers

The Furnace

Temple-then Walls

Ljube is not convinced on the temples, but these are needed for extended line of sight, getting resource tiles and a longer buffer to invaders moves. We also plan on colonies for incense and spices by the Furnace.

We need this in order to prepare for the Keshiks, and we should adapt the tech slider so we can build finished the marketplace-pyramids and then change our production to Keshiks.

Last edited by Omnistar on 29-08-2005 at 14:33

	29-08-2005 17:07									#4
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When we first discussed about which wonder to build (about 15 turns ago) we considered several possibilities, all very advantageous for our Horde.


1) Pyramids - Given that our core is in plains and that we possess no granaries, coupled with the fact that we have very few workers and not enough improved land and small cities this wonder seemed like the best choice. However, we need 25 turns to complete it (building a marketplace and a worker first). After that, our cities would need additional 20 turns to grow to size 7 provided we build no settlers. That's 45 turns till we experience some benefit from the Pyramids. In the meantime we may build additional workers, but that would delay the targeted growth of our core cities to size 7.

If we build settlers in all our cities, we would be able to build 10 more cities in 30 turns. These 10 more cities would increase the free unit support figures more than the growth of our core would.

And the military timeline: As soon as we research chivalry, we will switch to monarchy and then upgrade our horse to keshik. We need 90 gold for each upgrade. AM will provide a tribute of 40 gpt for 20 turns, that's a total of 800 gold, enough to upgrade 9 horse to keshik. We have some reserve which will be enough to upgrade another horse to keshik, that's 10. This force of keshiks will then strike the AM in exactly 24 turns. It will take us at most 5 turns to utterly destroy the AM. So in 30 turns the AM are broken or erased. Following this we need about 10 turns to consolidate and then we move on the remnants of Babylon. Without iron and with core cities in the hills, it is estimated that Babylon will be destroyed in additional 10 turns. This will place about two thirds of the world territory in our possession by the time Pyramids are expected to yield some benefit.

If all goes well, the DR should be fighting a war with the Lost Boys. I think that the DR consider the Horde cowards who would try to avoid real fights at all cost. We should try to maintain this perception of the Horde in the DR.

We would then attack the Lost Boys and capture their cities in the hills (their coastal capital and their iron source city). This will be a swift attack which will catch the lost boys by surprise. The Lost Boys will lose their core cities (2 or 3 of them) and then would probably turn on us together with the DR. The final battle will take at least 20 turns, probably slightly more. So, this game should be over in not more than 70 turns from now. I doubt that the Pyramids will pay off by then.


2) Temple of Artemis - Given that we lack the ability to build temples in our remote cities (outposts) and that we plan to capture more enemy cities, it would be an asset for our military if we had advanced scouting the cultural expansion offers and inhibition of the movement of enemy troops. This may prove crucial in captured cities, particularly those cities captured from the Lost Boys in about 40-50 turns from now. Also, this will solve much of our happiness issues and reduce the need for luxuries. Furthermore, this will eliminate the maintenance cost for temples.

This wonder was adopted as best suited for our military expansion. It could be completed in 23 turns from this moment and could produce a tremendous impact in 28 turns (all cities with culture at least 10). This wonder would delay our switch to monarchy however as culture is not accumulated during anarchy.

If we choose to complete this wonder, we could then opt to complete additional 2 wonders during our golden age as both Pyramids and Knights Templar would then require less than 20 turns total.

The dilemma between Pyramids and Temple of Artemis is one of cultural expansion vs settlers expansion. With Pyramids we would be able to build many cities more. These cities could be built to catch important resources (such as banana near Red river Hill or wheat on flood plains near Furnace) or to consolidate territory. With Temple of Artemis the desired resources would come under our rule by means of cultural expansion and our newly captured cities would have less happiness issues and better security.

Temple of Artemis will fully pay off in exactly 28 turns from now. Compared to Pyramids which will pay off in about 45 turns, Temple of Artemis seems more cost effective.


3) Knights Templar - This wonder wasn't even considered when we first contemplated wonder builds. The Horde decided to build Temple of Artemis then. However, several turns later we came into position to research chivalry. An intense discussion arose considering our options and how quickly we wanted chivalry. The majority of the Horde wanted chivalry as soon as possible. Some of our generals (me included) wanted chivalry as late as possible, researched with only 1 scientist (50 turns). The rationale behind this was that we were not ready for chivalry, that our cities were too small to support construction of keshik and that we had not enough gold or horses for the big discovery (for upgrades). I even suggested a switch to feudalism to increase our tax generation and free unit support.

The two lines were reconciled when we included Knights Templar in the equation. With this wonder as our target, researching chivalry at top speed became justified. Now our capital will be producing Ancient Cavalries, Crusaders and Keshiks almost every turn. Crusaders are extremly valuable, much more valuable than their stats would show. They have the ability to construct forts. These Crusaders could fortify our borders and free our main force to do what they do best. Last but not least, building Knights Templar we deny the wonder to any other team that would build it.

Instead of this wonder we could build an equivalent of 3 medieval infantries and 1 pike. So the wonder will pay off in 20 turns following its construction. We could also build an equivalent of 10 pikes/horses, but these are not comparable to Crusaders. However, even if we counted this, the wonder would pay off in 50 turns following its construction. That's still sooner than the end of this game.


So from a strictly militaristic point of view, both Knights Templar and Temple of Artemis are far better and more applicable than the Pyramids and will pay off sooner. However, since we have large areas of land unsettled and if we think the game would last longer than 70 turns, Pyramids could be more valuable in the long run.

	29-08-2005 18:07									#5
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To me its got to be chivalry asap, then Templars is a sweet cherry for us.

Artemis has long been a wonder Ive not thought served our cause, though considering the type of game we have and that we most likely will never have need of education which kills the free temples I now have to agree with Ljube that Artemis is worthwhile, though whether its necessary is another issue.

I dont think Pyramids is the way to go, I do think markets are needed in certain cities.

I think its obvious which way we should go at least until we have chivalry and have switched, its got to be templars and monarchy and upgrades of as many horse as we can afford.

I think we can then review what, if any, further wonders we build, and debate who we attack, and when as the upgrade time gets nearer.

Best laid plans ! problem with any plan is you never know or can predict whats around the corner, always good to look ahead and consider plans, but always necessary to retain flexability in the face of the unknown

Again to me here and now our main imediate objectives are chivalry, templars, Upgrades and switch to monarchy, Ill leave all the formulas and details to those of you far more capable of doing the sums

	29-08-2005 19:45									#6
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Excellent post Ljube

We are facing a strategic dilemma, since your plan would take out AM pretty soon, whereas our beloved Khan consider them our friends.

	30-08-2005 02:28									#7
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My thoughts:
1. We can NOT switch to Monarchy immediately AFTER building the Knights Templar. The wonder will be our second militaristic wonder and immediately start a GA.

2. I believe that the Pyramids (although really, really nice) are not as useful for us as the Temple of Artemis.

3. Although I do not foresee using any of the Templars for attack, we are currently almost paralyzed by lack of home defenders. These guys would be really nice within our own borders, since they will have a 3 movement (due to roads) and would make a devastating counterattack force.

4. I believe that we need to build marketplaces and supplement them in some of our core cities with granaries.

I realize that any production of such buildings may take some troops away from the front, but, really, we are not producing troops all that fast since we lack these particular buildings.

A modest proposal: Build markets and granaries in cities that can reach size 7 (i.e. are on rivers and have sufficient food). Build Knights Templar but switch to Monarchy or Feudalism BEFORE we come anywhere close to completing it (thus not giving away WHY we are switching). Do not population rush. Build cities for the SOLE purpose of using them as taxmen and unit support! (We simply can not hold more cities w/o massive corruption. This is true in any government except Communism).

	30-08-2005 07:48									#8
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In order for us to trigger the golden age by wonder building, I think we need to build at least one militaristic and one expansionistic wonder. I think both Statue of Zeus and Knights Templar are militaristic and religious wonders and won't trigger our golden age.

	30-08-2005 10:39									#9
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WE should know this Golden Age think 100 %, not second guess it. If we waste our Golden Age on anarchy and despotism, so help me God.

	30-08-2005 10:51									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Omnistar Excellent post Ljube We are facing a strategic dilemma, since your plan would take out AM pretty soon, whereas our beloved Khan consider them our friends.

Yes they are our allies.

Not sure the relevance of this in this deiscussion on Great Wonders.

Can either of you show any actions of AM not being our allies?

	30-08-2005 10:54									#11
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where do we get information on the wonder / golden age issue?

	30-08-2005 11:11									#12
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Ok Omni and I chatting

summary so far

a model needs to be done on Mongols building the two wonders and see what happens

well, with 125 gold in 30 turns
we need monarchy before Templar
perfect time for monarchy is straight after chivalry
no one would touch us
anarchy is vulnerable
and then complete Templar straight after the revolution

	30-08-2005 11:55									#13
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ok test number 1 completed

in depost

built barracks
then zeus
then temoplar

no golden age triggered

	30-08-2005 12:04									#14
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ok test number 2 completed

in monarchy

built barracks
then zeus
then templar

no golden age triggered



these tests done in pbem games so as to get the correct bugs

	30-08-2005 12:14									#15
	Got spare money?

ok test number 3 completed

in feudalism

built barracks
then zeus
then templar

no golden age triggered



these tests done in pbem games so as to get the correct bugs

	30-08-2005 16:35									#17
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Well, having rebutted Rcoutmes idea of that Templar triggers GA, we should do the following:

Marketplace (The money created could buy us 3 Keshiks upgrades, which is more than the value of a Crusader in the same time period.

Complete chivalry in time, also helped out by the marketplace, no need for scientists.

Delay Templar 5 turns, then change to Feudalism.

Monarchy vs. Feudalism

We only got one city, and 10 towns, all in low growth regions with no real city improvements.
Monarchy will only give us 2 free upkeep per town, 4 free per city and 6 per metro.

Since we now have 1 major city and 10 towns (soon 12), Monarchy would give us

(1X4) + (12X2) = 26 free upkeep units
We have 49 units now
49-26=23 Deficit on unit expenses
I made an intended build program of 42 more units
23+42 = 65

We would get a deficit between 60 and 65 gold per turn with monarchy.

Let us try the same with Feudalism

(1X3) + (12X5) = 63 free upkeep
We have 49 now
63-49=14 new builds have free upkeep
49+42=90 units

90-63 units= 27 gold deficit


So far, I have proven that Feudalism better fits our smalltown cities with free upkeep as core concept and almost no improvements. Yet, we are 25 gold short of meeting the financial needs for upkeep with the following future units the next 30 turns

42 unit build up

3 Crusaders
6 Ancient Cavarly
4 Keshiks
9 horsemen
2 pikemen
13 Workers


Now, assumring we use Feudalism as our government, and that we delay Knights Templar 5 turns, we would get one unit less, but gold to upgrade 3 horsemen to Keshiks.
Then we are down to 89 units, deficit now 26.

Let us use two workers to first colonize incense hill, then expand colony to city. That reduces units to 87, deficit to 24.

Now, we should produce less horsemen, given the outcome of the DR-Bard battle at Beachboys 1075 BC, and produce more settlers under Feudalism for more free upkeep. Reducing horsemen and increasing cities would close this gap, but we still want surplus gold to upgrade horsemen. We got enough gold to upgrade 10 horsemen, bu with the present production of 9 veterans, and yet another 13 veteran horses out there, with estimated losses and promotions in the bard war, we should aim for a realistic 15 horseman-Keshik upgrades, price 1350 gold.
This means we need to raise another 400 Gold.

The plan is to make Bloodhue and Bloodview settler factories, along with FA. Bloodhue to colonize the land north of KBH and Bloodview to colonize Bard lands, where
FA should colonize Southwards. We remove 2 horsemen and a keshik from the Bloodhue buildqueue. Units down to
84 and deficit down to 21. Adding the fact we use two workers to make a city on the incense, we also reduce the
deficit down to 16, as each town gives 5 free upkeep in Feudalism. This leaves us at 3 new cities in order to bring down the deficit to almost Zero.

Therefore, I will propose to improve the food production and settler production of Bloodhue, Bloodview and Filiolus Ala, with the intention to settle two cities on each gold mine north of KBH, which give 10 free upkeep and about 10 gold right into our economy, one of them a gold-port.

Finally, the last city will be placed in order to make our claim on the newly conquered Bardlands.

Bloodhue - Northern Gold
Filiolus ala- Southern Gold
Bloodview - Bardland Outpost
2 Workers - Incense City South

This will bring us up to 17 cities in total.
With all these cities and Feudalism, corruption is the same as monarchy, higher upkeep for free, and 1 minus deficit in gold. At this point, I would suggest to disband regular warrior Grinder, and go in Zero Unit deficit.

	30-08-2005 17:14									#18
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Dont forget to add atleast 2 boats to the list of units.

	30-08-2005 18:39									#19
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Of course Commodore - they not forgotten in my office

	30-08-2005 20:31									#20
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Replying to Omni's analysis:

I used to be the staunchest proponent of feudalism. It is very well suited for small town economy and military conquest. It also supports ICS city spacing. However, not all is well with feudalism, there are problems.

One problem is war weariness. We are likely going to stay at war with almost all civs for the rest of this game and these wars are likley going to last until we completely destroy them. Although war weariness can be controlled using lux slaider and luxuries, it cannot be ignored.

Second problem and the biggest in my opinion is the pop rushing method of feudalism. While this method is extremely advantageous when building cheap units (spears, archers, horses and swords) it becomes inapplicable when building more expensive units such as keshiks.


As a consequence of this we made up our minds to switch to monarchy. Because we want to have Knights Templar completed before we switch, revolution will come no sooner than 15 turns, but no later than 20 turns from now and switch to monarchy will come in approximately 25 turns from now, after about 5 turns of anarchy.