31-08-2005 00:37									#31
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I'm not being obtuse. What I'm trying to say is that personal beliefs for the sake of 'comfort'/peace of mind has no connection to how people form their political views.

In relation to the article, if some people think the Sun revolves around Earth, good for them - as long as they're not involved with any space operations or frontline astronomical research. Others who know better can point and laugh, but aside from that this is just useless sensationalism.

As for my other remark, I don't think it was totally out of line considering you were very quick to establish the connection between superstition and voting.

	31-08-2005 00:39									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Ah, I didn't get that Q Cubed, you're right. My mom believes in reincarnation, gnomes, fairies and beautiful music playing in outer space. That's her. Since she's in no position of authority on these or any related subjects, what does it really matter?

SO she believes in Azathoth?

quote: “...that last amorphous blight of nethermost confusion which blasphemes and bubbles at the centre of all infinity-the boundless daemon-sultan Azathoth, whose name no lips dare speak aloud, and who gnaws hungrily in inconceivable, unlighted chambers beyond time amidst the muffled, maddening beating of vile drums and the thin, monotonous whine of accursed flutes; to which detestable pounding and piping dance slowly, awkwardly, and absurdly the gigantic ultimate gods, the blind, voiceless, tenebrous, mindless Other Gods whose soul and messenger is the crawling chaos Nyarlathotep.” (H.P.Lovecraft “The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath”)

	31-08-2005 00:40									#33
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I don't see any sublty, Q3. It looks like a stright forward endorsment.

That's odd, because it was clear to me that Q^3 was being just a tad sarcastic. I mean, that should be clear solely from the fact that it's Q^3 posting this, and he's not usually one to seriously post an article like this.

	31-08-2005 00:41									#34
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This is another reason why public opinion means diddly squat.

	31-08-2005 00:41									#35
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I think I'd better call her in the morning.

	31-08-2005 00:44									#36
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It has no connection to how they form their political views?

Bullshit. If I believe that the Earth is the centre of the Universe and that the stars, planets, Moon and Sun are simply paint on a celestial canvas then will I vote for a party which wants to explore the Moon? Obviously not.

How can you claim that any false beliefs held by the public will not affect political decisions?

Hell, we've seen some public schools in the US teaching creationism. We've seen Europe go overboard in banning the importation of GM food. Both of those are due to poor scientific understanding in the public.

	31-08-2005 00:55									#37
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Or it might be a basic difference of opinion. Which is after all what our democracy is based upon.

I think very few people would require that everbody be right on everything in order to have the right to vote. Especially seeing as how 'universal truths' have such strong tendency to be replaced by brand new, bigger and improved ones, as time goes by.

	31-08-2005 00:57									#38
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Nice to see Winston defending the stupid people...

	31-08-2005 00:58									#39
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Oh shut up, you intolerable moron.

	31-08-2005 01:00									#40
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse It has no connection to how they form their political views? Bullshit. If I believe that the Earth is the centre of the Universe and that the stars, planets, Moon and Sun are simply paint on a celestial canvas then will I vote for a party which wants to explore the Moon? Obviously not.

Bush wants to send men to Mars. Im sure a very large number of the folks who voted for him think thats a poor idea, as compared to say, using the money for tax cuts, or invading Syria. And some folks who like Mars exploration, voted against Bush anyway. I dont know how to break this sad fact to you, but astronomy and physics related issues dont dominate too many elections in the western world

Now global warming is something else again, but plenty of folks who ARE good copernicans dont seem to understand THAT

	31-08-2005 01:00									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Or it might be a basic difference of opinion. Which is after all what our democracy is based upon.

It's in everybody's interest to have differences of opinion based on reality rather than fantasy. Which neither creationism nor GM phobia is.

quote: I think very few people would require that everbody be right on everything in order to have the right to vote.

Stop putting words in my mouth. I never advocated disenfranchising anybody based on their knowledge. I'm advocating better scientific education.

	31-08-2005 01:00									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Or it might be a basic difference of opinion. Which is after all what our democracy is based upon. I think very few people would require that everbody be right on everything in order to have the right to vote. Especially seeing as how 'universal truths' have such strong tendency to be replaced by brand new, bigger and improved ones, as time goes by.

Looks like Winston has just fallen for post-modernism.

	31-08-2005 01:01									#43
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Hell, we've seen some public schools in the US teaching creationism. We've seen Europe go overboard in banning the importation of GM food. Both of those are due to poor scientific understanding in the public.

	31-08-2005 01:01									#44
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse It's in everybody's interest to have differences of opinion based on reality rather than fantasy. Which neither creationism nor GM phobia is. Stop putting words in my mouth. I never advocated disenfranchising anybody based on their knowledge. I'm advocating better scientific education.

who exactly has opposed that? I dont see what it has to do with Winstons mom though.

And do call her Winston. Im sure you wont regret it.

	31-08-2005 01:02									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Oh shut up, you intolerable moron.

Obviously hit a raw nerve there...

	31-08-2005 01:02									#46
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Bush wants to send men to Mars. Im sure a very large number of the folks who voted for him think thats a poor idea, as compared to say, using the money for tax cuts, or invading Syria. And some folks who like Mars exploration, voted against Bush anyway. I dont know how to break this sad fact to you, but astronomy and physics related issues dont dominate too many elections in the western world Now global warming is something else again, but plenty of folks who ARE good copernicans dont seem to understand THAT

I've never claimed that it's a one to one correspondence. It's obviously not. But the effect is there. Otherwise you're claiming that public attitudes have nothing to do with individual policy decisions. The fact is, they do...

	31-08-2005 01:04									#47
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We agree on the need for better scientific education. I just happen to think that e.g. differences on the use of genetic manipulation are not just a problem of scientific understanding, but also one of personal or national preference - that is, a basic difference of opinion. Which should be respected.

I'm also inherently sceptical of putting too strong a faith in scientific infallibility.

	31-08-2005 01:04									#48
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark who exactly has opposed that?

Winston hasn't opposed it; he's merely denied that it makes any difference one way or the other.

	31-08-2005 01:10									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Winston We agree on the need for better scientific education. I just happen to think that e.g. differences on the use of genetic manipulation are not just a problem of scientific understanding, but also one of personal or national preference - that is basic difference of opinion.

Well, duh. But better understanding does make a difference. Like it or not, some people's opinions on some subjects are based on ignorance. One of those subjects is creationism. Another is Europe's phobia of GM crops. Some people who aren't ignorant may be opposed to any GM on some sort of weird moral naturistic basis. But most of it is fear and paranoia based.

quote: I'm also inherently sceptical of putting too strong a fith in scientific infallibility.

There is no such thing as scientific infallibility. I've never claimed that there was. But I do know that science does a lot better than any other methodology we've tried. It's certainly better than no methodology at all.

	31-08-2005 01:13									#50
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Not everybody's "opinion" is as valid as everybody else's. Ignorance is not as valid as knowledge.

I'm not going to try to prevent the ignorant from voting. I will try to educate the ignorant in the firm belief that decisions made based on knowledge are generally better than decisions based on ignorance.

	31-08-2005 01:15									#51
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Not everybody's "opinion" is as valid as everybody else's. Ignorance is not as valid as knowledge.

Wake up call for Winston...

quote: I'm not going to try to prevent the ignorant from voting. I will try to educate the ignorant in the firm belief that decisions made based on knowledge are generally better than decisions based on ignorance.

Exactly, if we had fewer ignorant people, perhaps the invasion of Iraq would never have taken place...

	31-08-2005 01:26									#52
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Not everybody's "opinion" is as valid as everybody else's. Ignorance is not as valid as knowledge. I'm not going to try to prevent the ignorant from voting. I will try to educate the ignorant in the firm belief that decisions made based on knowledge are generally better than decisions based on ignorance.

Well, duh.

At least we're in agreement here.

But I do think there's a need for distinction between what is the indiputable, scientifical truth - and what has to do with personal opinion, which may be formed by a number of non-scientific circumstances, including emotion, past personal experience, etc. This last category may include the question of creationism, questions of genetic manipulation, and possibly organ donation, use of authopsies, a whole range of issues where people have a difference of opinion not based on hard facts, but personal perception. Those are individual choices which should all be respected. And whether they have any significant bearing on how people vote (which I think you overestimate a little) is entirely beside the point, to me.

	31-08-2005 01:31									#53
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And FWIW, I personally think that in this country, people who hold superstitious beliefs, or who in general base their opinions more upon emotion than fact, are far more dominant to the left of centre than to the right.

Just to clear up the misconception that seems to be forming among some that I'm touting my own party-political horn here. I'm not.

	31-08-2005 01:33									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Proteus_MST SO she believes in Azathoth?

Trey Azathoth

	31-08-2005 01:38									#55
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Let's see how the average frenchman scores.

Who exactly did they poll? What age group, what geographic area? Does this include illegal immigrants and five year old children? The response you will get in ANY part of New Hampshire will be widly different then most of South Dekota. Urban, suburban?


Most people have no freaking idea what radiation is. 90% of apolyton is unable to give a textbook answer..... most people will simply describe the effects of it.

	31-08-2005 01:55									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Saras Trey Azathoth

	31-08-2005 02:03									#57
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I've never claimed that it's a one to one correspondence. It's obviously not. But the effect is there. Otherwise you're claiming that public attitudes have nothing to do with individual policy decisions. The fact is, they do...

yeah, but whats the marginal value to democracy of more money on education in astronomy and physics, versus say, economics, or foreign languages? Or maybe you just end up with "more education is good for democracy".

	31-08-2005 02:26									#58
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These statistics are bull. If someone asked me such a dumb question, I might just give them a stupid answer.

	31-08-2005 02:39									#59
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Yes, never exclude the possibility that people answering a survey might be messing with the pollster's mind.

	31-08-2005 02:50									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Vesayen Let's see how the average frenchman scores.

The 'sun goes around the earth' question was sooo Poly2004.

quote: Yes, never exclude the possibility that people answering a survey might be messing with the pollster's mind.