01-09-2005 16:15									#1
	Units fortification Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: @Locutus: the longer a unit is fortified, the bigger the defensive bonus it gets

From the Pre-Release information thread

This is not always true. Imagine an infantry battalion fortified somewhere, let's say on a grassy hill near a strategic river. The first days they are really busy building all the fortifications around their camp, so yes, the defense bonus goes up. They are very motivated and excited too, waiting for something to happen.

But... say nothing happens for about four weeks, which in relation to Civ-like timespans between rounds is peanuts. Well, I guess the scenery would look roughly like this: a few small groups of soldiers have put their vests on a heap, taken out some booze and are playing poker on a weapons crate. Another group is bakin in the sun on the shores of the river, taking a refreshing swim now and then and the commander of the lot has found a lovely cottage in the woods nearby and is -ahem- having some fun of his own with the lady living there while her husband is playing poker in another regiment far away.

So I would say the defensive bonus should actually sink down into the negatives if the defending unit doesn't get some action.

And once in a while, a unit attacking a bunch of depraved soldiers like the one I described could be tempted at the sight of such depravation and get depraved itself a bit too, resulting in a kind of 'tie' battle where you lose control of the attacking unit for 5 turns unless you have a general in the same square. Thinking of which, it would be cool to have some kind of unit back like the diplomats in Civ2 that could bribe or -deprave- an enemy unit

Am I making sense? I thought as much.

	01-09-2005 16:53									#2
	Re: Units fortification Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by AeonOfTime This is not always true. Imagine an infantry battalion fortified somewhere, let's say on a grassy hill near a strategic river. The first days they are really busy building all the fortifications around their camp, so yes, the defense bonus goes up. They are very motivated and excited too, waiting for something to happen. (SNIP)

I think you are mixing the defense built working on terrain, trenches, molehole, barricades, tower, mining field (in modern era) and the like with the attention and vigilance of the sentinels (yes, they are dedicated at this, just so others soldiers can sleep, eat, maintain the weapons, wash themselves and the uniform - if water is available).

On a strategic scale as in Civ, an ambush is not a tactical option: it's all into the chance of a bad or good "electronic throw of dices".
We are left with the long term enancing of the terrain - some by workers, as forts or bunkers, some by the troop itself.

	01-09-2005 17:26									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I think my archer will anyways be smart enough to think up some way to nullify your warrior's defensive advance, which he has gained by entrenching for 50 years (read "one turn")..

	01-09-2005 19:02									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Aeon, this sounds like the fortified Roman bootcamps in "Asterix the Gaul"...

	02-09-2005 12:50									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: @Aro: sounds like the fortified Roman bootcamps in "Asterix the Gaul"

Now that you mention it, it does sound a lot like those camps

quote: @Adm.Naismith: I think you are mixing the defense built working on terrain, trenches, molehole, barricades, tower, mining field (in modern era) and the like with the attention and vigilance of the sentinels

Silly me, I forgot to mention the sentinels. Sentinels, of course, are trained in keeping their senses sharp for any signs of the enemy - even with the kind of disturbing scents and sounds coming from the camp, where people are generally having a very good time.

But let's look at the sentinel-situation four weeks later: there is a sturdy core that holds steady and is still alert, and pretty much sulking about the others being weak and all; and there are those others that are either sleeping, drinking or playing cards just like the rest of the lot, as this place is absolutely mindboggingly dull. The only thing that happened in those bloody four weeks were rabbits doing rabbit things just behind the fortifications, and one wandering cow that was quite succelent the way the camp's chef prepared it.

Nah, honestly - I know on Civ's scale this makes no sense and would not really enhance gameplay, but somehow it doesn't seem probable that units sitting in the same spot for years get better at defending themselves without anything happening. Through experience in the field, yes - but not by sitting idly there. The initial defense bonus could come from the unit setting up the defenses, but beyond that it's a bit silly...

It's like unit promotions: I would like units that got promoted and that don't get any action for some time to be demoted again (*ducking*).

	02-09-2005 13:12									#6
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by AeonOfTime Silly me, I forgot to mention the sentinels. Sentinels, of course, are trained in keeping their senses sharp for any signs of the enemy - even with the kind of disturbing scents and sounds coming from the camp, where people are generally having a very good time. and there are those others that are either sleeping, drinking or playing cards just like the rest of the lot, as this place is absolutely mindboggingly dull. The only thing that happened in those bloody four weeks were rabbits doing rabbit things just behind the fortifications, and one wandering cow that was quite succelent the way the camp's chef prepared it.

Ok, let everyone else know: where did you spent your military service?

quote: Originally posted by AeonOfTime Nah, honestly - I know on Civ's scale this makes no sense and would not really enhance gameplay, but somehow it doesn't seem probable that units sitting in the same spot for years get better at defending themselves without anything happening. Through experience in the field, yes - but not by sitting idly there. It's like unit promotions: I would like units that got promoted and that don't get any action for some time to be demoted again (*ducking*).

Training, military exercises, war games, aren't as good to teach war lessons as a real battle is, but I bet they can work well enough., Again, I'm speaking about a Civ strategic scale: if it's silly to keep troops fortified for more than 50 years - on early turn lenght - is on the same wave silly to compute every battle on the map as lasting 50 years

May be someone could try co mod the game to add this effect, so both of us will enjoy Civ IV as we like it, till the last detail...

	02-09-2005 15:47									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Remember the original civ? (civ1 that is )

You needed at least one full turn until your units were properly fortified. (Well, the graphics didn't change until after one full turn anyway. Never bothered to do a thorough statistical analysis)

Given an able commander, a units ability to defend should indeed increase over time as they not only improves their fortifications but also learn to know the local terrain. Up to some limit of course

	02-09-2005 16:18									#8
	Put an end to popups!

quote: @bongo: You needed at least one full turn until your units were properly fortified.

Yes, I remember that. I suppose the new bonus in Civ4 can be compared to that in a way...

quote: @bongo: Given an able commander, a units ability to defend should indeed increase over time as they not only improves their fortifications but also learn to know the local terrain.

That's assuming the commander is able

I don't mean to say that it doesn't work at all! Just that a unit camped in a jungle, for ex. cannot gain the experience required to defend itself in that specific terrain just by sitting there. Even intensive training cannot fully prepare it for the 'real thing', for that it needs combat experience.

Imagine you have a unit that has been sitting in a jungle for 100 turns without any real combat experience: chances are that if a unit comes by that has a lot of jungle combat experience, your unit will be wiped out anyway regardless of the defense bonus it has accumulated.

What I also see is that combat experience is very specialized: if you take a unit specialized in jungle combat and put it up against another one specialized in desert combat (on its own terrain), the odds should change accordingly (the jungle experience isn't worth peanuts in the desert).

It is like all crafts: it takes a long time and a lot of experience to master one, and you can only be a master in one craft (normally anyway... I guess this does not apply to Rambo). I would like to have something like terrain-based unit specializations, that would add a whole new strategic dimension to the game. It would be quite hard for another civ to conquer you on your own ground if your units are adapted to the kind of terrain you dwell in (unless it's the same type... heheh). It would also be more difficult to run campaigns against distant civs if the terrain is different.

Imagine living in a nordic region with forests and tundra: if you send your units into the desert to conquer distant civs it seems only natural that they should have a terrain-based advantage, as your units are not used to that kind of terrain.

...but I know that's a little far-fetched for Civ and I'm quite happy with the way it seems it will be implemented

	02-09-2005 16:57									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

In civ1 fortify gave you 50% defensive bonus, in civ3 it's down to 25%...

How about....10% the instant you hit "f", 10 more the next turn and a final 10% the turn after that?