02-09-2005 09:57									#1
	proportional absolutes: is this grammatically acceptable? Remove this text

I was reading a news article today which used a type of word combination that struck as simultaneously strange and yet, commonplace.

The words were: "more uncontrollable".

Uncontrollable seems to me to denote an absolute state of affairs. I mean absolute in the sense that it does not denote a limited degree of control or uncontrollability... it is plainly an simply "uncontrollable". So is it correct to contextualize give a limited proportion to such a word by adding the term "more" or "less" before it? Or is there another way of expressing this?

	02-09-2005 10:14									#2
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I would agree. The author could have used the phrase 'less controllable' instead, or synonyms for uncontrollable - like chaotic, unruly, wild etc., depending on the context. But 'more uncontrollable' is very poor form.

	02-09-2005 10:20									#3
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I disagree. Let me tell you why.
Winston is uncontrollable. Sava, is even more uncontrollable.
Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, I rest my case.

	02-09-2005 10:34									#4
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It's not working, SlowwHand. You can say it, but logically, it doesn't make any sense.

Try substituting 'braindead'. You can still say it (it'll earn you a smacking, but hey!), but it shows a terrible command of the language if you ponder it for just a while.

	02-09-2005 11:27									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Winston It's not working, SlowwHand. You can say it, but logically, it doesn't make any sense.

Correct. A better example would be Katrina and any garden variety thunderstorm. Both are clearly uncontrollable (at least by man), but one is just as obviously far worse than the other.

	02-09-2005 13:43									#6
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Grammatically it is correct, however that doesn't mean it has to make sense.

	02-09-2005 14:15									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Grammatically it is correct, however that doesn't mean it has to make sense.

Actually, I think it's exactly the opposite -- it makes sense (that is, we know what is meant), but it's not grammatically correct.

(And I have to say, the comparative "more unique" is something I hear all the time, and it makes my skin crawl...)

	02-09-2005 14:56									#8
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Back to the OP.

I agree that "controllablility" (is there such a word) is a binary condition. That is, something can either be controlled or it cannot. It is a black and white situation.

It's like dead. An organism can be either dead or live, but there's nothing like more dead. AFAIK, nothing in the grammar prevents you from writing "more dead," but it is meaningless.

	03-09-2005 13:00									#9
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I should qualify my my initial post by noting that I took that example from The People's Daily (Chinese State News website)... so it may just be engrish. But I have definitely heard people saying similar things before...

	03-09-2005 13:06									#10
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"He becomes more and more unqualified for the job every day..." This implies that the negatives are rising. "He becomes less and less qualified for the job every say" This implies the positives are becoming less and less. The latter still retains a small degree of positiveness about it, whiole the latter is completely negative.

	03-09-2005 13:20									#11
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If you understand what the words mean and the expression is fairly common place but makes no sense if 'analysed' then I would guess it constitutes an idiom.

	03-09-2005 13:24									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Back to the OP. I agree that "controllablility" (is there such a word) is a binary condition. That is, something can either be controlled or it cannot. It is a black and white situation.

You can control parts of a situation, so why not have a situation where you lose more control over it? If something becomes 'more uncontrolled' you must have been using hyperbole in the first instance.

When people are discussing natural disasters their 'controllability' is usually in respect of the consequences, not the event itself.

	03-09-2005 13:26									#13
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But we're talking about uncontrollable, not uncontrolled, Dauphin.

Something is either uncontrollable, or it isn't.

	03-09-2005 13:31									#14
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That doesn't change my point.

Parts of a situation may be controllable, others not, so why can't a situation be partly controllable? Parts that are controllable may become uncontrollable or vice versa. In total the sitution can become more or less controllable.

	03-09-2005 13:32									#15
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But less controllable implies there is still some semblance of control. More uncontrollable implies there is no control already.

	03-09-2005 13:38									#16
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I was taking point to the binary comment, not the use of the expression 'more uncontrollable'.

	03-09-2005 13:38									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Kalius But less controllable implies there is still some semblance of control. More uncontrollable implies there is no control already.

Exactly. I suggested 'less controllable' in my first post as a phrase to be preferred.

'Uncontrollable' is an absolute state like e.g. being braindead, as I pointed to earlier.

	03-09-2005 13:41									#18
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Of course you could say that the clarification is missing. i.e it has more uncontrallable [elements].

	03-09-2005 13:45									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin Of course you could say that the clarification is missing. i.e it has more uncontrallable [elements].

Yes, but as you imply that's not dealing with the degree of controllability.

	03-09-2005 13:49									#20
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I would compare it to the tossing of a coin, it can only be heads or tails. A single coin toss can not be more heads or more tails. If you are tossing 10 coins you can toss more heads or more tails.

It depends on what you take the words to mean, and what you are applying the word more to.

	03-09-2005 13:57									#21
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Again, you're correct. But you're still dealing with the frequency, not the degree of controllability, which is the issue before us.

	03-09-2005 13:59									#22
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You miss my point then.

	03-09-2005 14:05									#23
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I must say, you're on a roll here.

Could you point it out for me?