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DerSchwarzfalke
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If the Dravidians had balls enough to stand up to the Aryans, none of us would be speaking Indo-European variant languages today.
No father/vater/vader for us!
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
Who saved Poland and Austria from the Turks.
Also, Eugene's wars against France are irrelevant.
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Only to a Pole whose country was on the losing side against Eugene's.
Still lamenting poor old Stanislas, who had to go into exile in France, before Saxony, Russia, Austria and Prussia brought civilization to Poland.... 
Eugene continued fighting against the Turks long after the Battle of Vienna- I said Sobieski was overrated: and he is.
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In his first battle, at the relief of Vienna from siege by the Turks in 1683, Eugene so distinguished himself that the Emperor gave him a regiment of dragoons to command the following year. |
As I said, he is the more important:
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...in the service of the Austrian Holy Roman emperor, made his name as one of the greatest soldiers of his generation. He fought notably against the Turks in central Europe and the Balkans (1683–88, 1697, 1715–18) and against France in the War of the Grand Alliance (1689–97) and in the War of the Spanish Succession (1701–14). He was the teacher of Frederick the Great and the only one among the seven great strategists of all time whose campaigns Napoleon considered worthy of study by posterity. |
http://www.hfac.uh.edu/gbrown/philo...ugeneSavoy.html
I don't have a chauvinist axe to grind for Eugene of Savoy. Just great admiration for a magnificent soldier and strategist.
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And You claim You're not arrogant? |
Heresson
Well dear, you're the one making big, arrogant assumptions:
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...and I guess You forget that it's not the only battle Sobieski fought as well . |
Heresson
So if you can't stand the heat, don't start fires in the kitchen.
Have some more polony and take a chill pill, why don't'cha ?
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:32
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quote:
Originally posted by molly bloom
Only to a Pole whose country was on the losing side against Eugene's.
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Isn't the battle of vienna considered the one that's saved Austria? And was not John III in the lead there?
Eugene did not defend or save Austria, he enlarged it on cost of the Turks - which only prooves that Turks, after Vienna, were already weak and weren't a serious threat for Europe anymore.
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Still lamenting poor old Stanislas, who had to go into exile in France, before Saxony, Russia, Austria and Prussia brought civilization to Poland....
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huh? Eugene is better soldier than John III, because after his death, there was a civil war in Poland? Funny idea, and the part about bringing civilisation to Poland is even more interesting. However, it'd be irrelevant even if we were discussing John III against Sobieski in general, and not only who saved Europe from the Turks.
Again, when You can't prove your claims, You slightly change the topic.
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Eugene continued fighting against the Turks long after the Battle of Vienna- I said Sobieski was overrated: and he is.
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Yet, You gave no proof for it but your admiration for Eugene.
I have no special admiration for Sobieski. He was a bad king, and a general that could make great victories, but wasn't able to gain much from them.
Still, it is him, not your beloved Eugene, who baffled the last Turkish attempt of westward expansion.
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As I said, he is the more important:
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And it prooves it how?
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Well dear, you're the one making big, arrogant assumptions:
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How this is more arrogant than what you've repeated twice? 
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
Isn't the battle of vienna considered the one that's saved Austria? And was not John III in the lead there?
Eugene did not defend or save Austria, he enlarged it on cost of the Turks - which only prooves that Turks, after Vienna, were already weak and weren't a serious threat for Europe anymore.
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And yet somehow they managed to fight on for a further sixteen years !!!
How amazingly weak they must have been....
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Eugene did not defend or save Austria. |
Haha!!!
Oh dear, not much cop at Austrian history, are you ?
What a ridiculous assertion- he saved Austria from French domination and was defending it at the Battle of Vienna- 'In his first battle, at the relief of Vienna from siege by the Turks in 1683'- (my post before this one)
-and he was the one fighting those 'weak' Turks in the following sixteen years after Vienna.
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How this is more arrogant than what you've repeated twice ? |
See, this is what you always do- you make a snide or arrogant remark, then complain when someone mocks you, or uses the same tactics you do. Boo hoo, poor Heresson.
If you don't want to be made fun of, or treated with arrogant disdain, then don't start the ball rolling.
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I have no special admiration for Sobieski. |
Yes, that's stunningly apparent:
quote:
no. John III Sobieski  |
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:32
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quote:
Originally posted by molly bloom
And yet somehow they managed to fight on for a further sixteen years !!!
How amazingly weak they must have been....
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quote:
-and he was the one fighting those 'weak' Turks in the following sixteen years after Vienna.
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It took Byzantines 11 years since Mantzikert to the loss of Antioch. Still, You wouldn't call Turks endangered, and Mantzikert is considered the turning point of Anadolu's history. Of course, Turks were not in as bad condition as Byzantines after Mantzikert, but this comparison shows that, even with the greatest efforts, it takes some time to lose territory.
Since Vienna to Karlowice, Turks were the defending side. And they lost territory. I wouldn't call them a danger for Europe, then.
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Haha!!!
Oh dear, not much cop at Austrian history, are you ?
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Surely not in comparison to You, oh Molly the Wise!
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What a ridiculous assertion
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All assertions are ridiculous in comparison to Yours, oh Molly the Courteus!
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- he saved Austria from French domination and was defending it at the Battle of Vienna- 'In his first battle, at the relief of Vienna from siege by the Turks in 1683'- (my post before this one)
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Once again, molly: the French have not much to do with the subject. And the leader of the armies at Vienna was Sobieski - it is his victory, not Eugene's.
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See, this is what you always do- you make a snide or arrogant remark, then complain when someone mocks you, or uses the same tactics you do. Boo hoo, poor Heresson.
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My post was a very mild one. I simply claimed that You probably don't know any other Sobieski's victory but Vienna, with no insults. In fact, You haven't proven me You know one.
If You were me, You would've said something like
"What a ridiculous assertion. You don't know much of Austrian and Polish history, do You?".
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Yes, that's stunningly apparent:
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And how does that proves I have admiration for Sobieski?
I just claimed he, and not Eugene, saved Europe from the Turks. Such are the facts and I do not have to have admiration for Sobieski to claim it. On the other hand, it takes a lot of admiration for Eugene to claim otherwise, as seen on your example.
Last edited by Heresson on 04-09-2005 at 21:15
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Al'Kimiya
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If it weren't for YHWH we all would be speaking pre-Babel "Adamite" now.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
Have You ever thought about selling ego?
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You have a discounted surplus, let's start there.
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Once again, molly: the French have not much to do with the subject |
Oh dear, shall I write slowly, and in capital letters to make it clearer for you ?
That anyone can seriously espouse the notion that what happened between the Austrian Habsburg forces and Louis XIV's France had no relationship to the ability of Austria and its allies to repulse Turkish forces beggars belief.
It would certainly have staggered the court advisors of the Habsburgs, who considered Louis to be the greater threat.
A neutralized France in the West means that more troops from allied German states could assist Austria against the Turks- as happened in history- but obviously not the history you're interested in.
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...which only prooves that Turks, after Vienna, were already weak and weren't a serious threat for Europe anymore. |
It of course proves nothing of the sort- this is the kind of crappy hindsight revisionist history that I despise so much.
So weak, and so unthreatening were the Turks, that they managed to repulse the Russians in 1711, and defeat the Austrians in 1736-1739.
In fact, they took back territory from Russia and from Venice.
Perhaps they were just taking vitamin shots, hmm ?
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Ecthy
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Zhonghuà Rénmín Gònghéguó
Mar 2000
time: 06:32
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While Sobieski might have saved Poland, Eugene saved the world.
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03-09-2005 22:07
I think he's a bit impaired. The Polish newspapers depicting him with a gasmask did an awesome job. Just don't take this serious. While Austrians might actually have some predjudices about Poles, but Kühbauer is just dumb. 
Well, 
then.
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