04-09-2005 04:38									#31
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quote: Why not? That's how we do it over here, if the water starts rising. That's what laws are for: in emergency situations the police has the authority to remove people from their homes, if they refuse to cooperate. Prevents situations where rescue workers later have to risk their lifes to save people stupid enough to stay behind, and it prevents lawless situations from being created, as is now the case in NO. Of course, we've never had to evacuate a major city, but then again we also have far fewer resources available to organise such an evacuation.

We have never had a tradition of this. We don't have the facilities designated for such a thing, as is plainly evident today. Even a mandatory evacuation is really optional.

It seems to me that the first time it happened would be the last. If New Orleans were totally evacuated by force, but no hurricane hits (as often happens), there would be criminals who would remain and clean out houses of valuables. The criticism of the government would be endless.

Besides, I know it might sound odd to you, but forceful evacuations seem sort of fascist to me. If some are determined to rely on the grace of God, then that is their perogative.

	04-09-2005 04:51									#32
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat It may infuriate you, but there was an eight year period where non-reactionaries had the power and they did what ? I admit that since Bush is sitting in his second period, he could have done something, but claiming that last years cuts are to blame is just rediculous - it takes years to build up the nessecary facilities. To be true, the current disaster is at least to blame on Clinton because if it should have any effect it should have been started in his period of rule. About your bottom line - there is a difference between those that are in habit of handling an reoccuring catastrophe and those that has to go 50 years or more to find a similiar. Those tahat are accustomed to it, are better prepared and understand why, but those that only have rumors from their greatgrandfathers will be quite reluctant to nessecary preparations.

Regarding the Reactionaries, they are the ones in this thread talking about the other countries as that somehow because they are Commies, their plans just don't matter and don't apply to us and there is nothing to learn from that. That's just being arrogant and not addressing the issue at hand.

And regarding the frequency of hurricane,s count the number of hurricanes that strike the American coast, every single year. Chegitz alone must have post like 5 hurricane threads. It's a frequent event that happens.

The costliest disasters in American history have all been hurricanes, some of them like Hurricane Andrew, (which didn't happen that long ago) completely destroyed entire cities and wrecked havoc on the entire area of Southern Florida.

So to claim that this was just a "once in 50 year thing," is the same line of negligence that caused this disaster to happen in the first place, whether that be right, left, or center.

The powers that be are Reactionaries, they have not dealt with the crisis at hand adequatley, they must held responsible and accountable for their incompetence.

	04-09-2005 04:59									#33
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Only in recent years, dude. We had a long period of less frequent storms.

	04-09-2005 05:01									#34
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The mayor of NO issued a mandatory evacuation order. So this dicotomy between a "democratic" disaster response and a "dictatorial" one is false. All societies rely on compulsion in an emergency.

The problem is that the planning and resources needed to actually evacuate people without a vehicle were not in place. I don't think it takes a communist system to organize something like this, but it does require a society in which the role of government is appreciated and accepted.

	04-09-2005 05:07									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Regarding the Reactionaries, they are the ones in this thread talking about the other countries as that somehow because they are Commies, their plans just don't matter and don't apply to us and there is nothing to learn from that. That's just being arrogant and not addressing the issue at hand. And regarding the frequency of hurricane,s count the number of hurricanes that strike the American coast, every single year. Chegitz alone must have post like 5 hurricane threads. It's a frequent event that happens. The costliest disasters in American history have all been hurricanes, some of them like Hurricane Andrew, (which didn't happen that long ago) completely destroyed entire cities and wrecked havoc on the entire area of Southern Florida. So to claim that this was just a "once in 50 year thing," is the same line of negligence that caused this disaster to happen in the first place, whether that be right, left, or center. The powers that be are Reactionaries, they have not dealt with the crisis at hand adequatley, they must held responsible and accountable for their incompetence.

No doubt that Florida as Che is evidence of has been hit by hurricanes, but what about NO ?

Locally some areas are accustomed to, if not hurricanes, so storms with floddings, so they are used to it , but occasionally (could be 50 years) the storm is strong enough to do damage in the rest of the country. Unless I'm wrong, then it's the same for NO - they know that hurricanes is a possibility, but it's not a common thing.

	04-09-2005 05:20									#36
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In fact, the exact same happened almost exactly one year ago with Hurricane Ivan.

http://www.usatoday.com/weather/hur...ans-storm_x.htm

Posted 9/14/2004 5:26 PM

Direct hit by Ivan in New Orleans could mean a modern Atlantis

NEW ORLEANS (AP) — More than 1.2 million people in metropolitan New Orleans were warned to get out Tuesday as 140-mph Hurricane Ivan churned toward the Gulf Coast, threatening to submerge this below-sea-level city in what could be the most disastrous storm to hit in nearly 40 years.

Residents streamed inland in bumper-to-bumper traffic in an agonizingly slow exodus amid dire warnings that Ivan could overwhelm New Orleans with up to 20 feet of filthy, chemical-polluted water. About three-quarters of a million more people along the coast in Florida, Mississippi and Alabama also were told to evacuate.

	04-09-2005 05:21									#37
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quote: Originally posted by DanS We have never had a tradition of this.

What? This is the first time a tornado struck the US? The first time there's flooding in the Mississippi area? It seems to me more like there's an unwillingness to do this than a lack of precedent.

quote: there would be criminals who would remain and clean out houses of valuables.

That's why it's a forced evacuation. Over here everyone has to go, the police go house-by-house to make sure everyone left and they continue to patrol the area (by air if needed) even after it's supposed to be deserted to make sure it actually is. We've had a couple of such evacuations over the years and I've never heard of any criminals taking advantage of the situation. If it happens at all, it's on a very small scale.

quote: Besides, I know it might sound odd to you, but forceful evacuations seem sort of fascist to me. If some are determined to rely on the grace of God, then that is their perogative.

That would be fine if it's entirely their responsibility and noone else suffers from it, but it's just not the case. If god's grace isn't enough, hundreds or even thousands of rescue workers have to risk their lifes to safe these people, and the rescue operation costs the government millions, if not more. Who are these people to force others to make such sacrifices? And they have to make these sacrifices, because if they don't, or not sufficiently, the people who stay behind can freely loot and pillage and otherwise disrupt the properties of the people who did evacuate (as is happening now). That's much worse than perhaps slightly fascist (which I would disagree with, it's no more fascist than giving the police the right to detain people for questioning, or tresspassing laws, or outlawing public nudity or public drinking, or the production, trafficing or use of narcotic substances, or even of forcing people to pay taxes), that's plain criminal.

	04-09-2005 05:22									#38
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quote: Originally posted by DanS We have never had a tradition of this. We don't have the facilities designated for such a thing, as is plainly evident today. Even a mandatory evacuation is really optional.

See the post above about Hurricane Ivan.

We DO have a tradition of this.

Also what Locutus said.

Why do you continue to be worried more about being defensive DanS instead of DOING THE RIGHT THING.

	04-09-2005 05:35									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker In fact, the exact same happened almost exactly one year ago with Hurricane Ivan. http://www.usatoday.com/weather/hur...ans-storm_x.htm Posted 9/14/2004 5:26 PM Direct hit by Ivan in New Orleans could mean a modern Atlantis NEW ORLEANS (AP) — More than 1.2 million people in metropolitan New Orleans were warned to get out Tuesday as 140-mph Hurricane Ivan churned toward the Gulf Coast, threatening to submerge this below-sea-level city in what could be the most disastrous storm to hit in nearly 40 years. Residents streamed inland in bumper-to-bumper traffic in an agonizingly slow exodus amid dire warnings that Ivan could overwhelm New Orleans with up to 20 feet of filthy, chemical-polluted water. About three-quarters of a million more people along the coast in Florida, Mississippi and Alabama also were told to evacuate.

Exactly - that was a close one without any damage. That, in some scary way is the main problem. Nothing happened and people may have found it rediciously that they had to leave. Worse - local politicians claiming that nessecary precautions are to be taken/prepared will loose power/votes because nothing happened.

	04-09-2005 05:47									#40
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You don't believe that.

Stop being dishonest and cut the defensive line excuses and be honest.

It's getting really old.

	04-09-2005 07:07									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker You don't believe that. Stop being dishonest and cut the defensive line excuses and be honest. It's getting really old.

I can guarante that I belive that. Human memory is hopeless when remembering past time catastrophes and acting sensible to them if they aren't reoccuring on a a yearly basis.

NO may have experienced hurricanes in previous years, but the lesson thaugt is that damage isn't that bad.

What I have read is that peoples expancies of the current storm was some flodded celllars and nothing worse.

This time, one of the real big shits hits the fan but noone was prepared - the locals least.

Just to be curious - will you really blame the pres for not secure people without own capaciy to leave town when this is clearly the responsibility of the mayor and gobernor ?

	04-09-2005 07:15									#42
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quote: What? This is the first time a tornado struck the US?

You go to your basement for tornadoes. The government has nothing to do with it, other than give a warning and collect the injured.

quote: The first time there's flooding in the Mississippi area?

I don't remember flooding requiring such an operation.

	04-09-2005 07:25									#43
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I blame (partially) Pres Bush for what happened monday, tuesday, wednesday... (and maybe thursday)

he didn't act fast enough, he didn't know what was going on, which he should have for a disaster on that scale

no one in government knew, they didn't care...

and I blame them for it

Jon Miller

	04-09-2005 08:26									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus Over here everyone has to go, the police go house-by-house to make sure everyone left and they continue to patrol the area (by air if needed) even after it's supposed to be deserted to make sure it actually is.

Exactly. Even after an area is evacuated the law enforcement agency and maybe the military will keep an eye for criminal activities.

	04-09-2005 08:28									#45
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I think the main problem is that, the US is the country with the strongest Individualism tradition among the Western countries. This means that, on the average, an Usian has a higher reluctance to obey compulsory orders such as an evacuation. Some may actively resist it, considering such an order is an infringement upon their freedom.

	04-09-2005 08:33									#47
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Or they just might not have a car.

	04-09-2005 08:40									#48
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Our mandatory evacuations are really just suggestions. They don't make you leave.

	04-09-2005 09:27									#49
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Only in recent years, dude. We had a long period of less frequent storms.

You have only lived in Florida "in recent years."

I have grandparents that have been there (in the Gulf area) for 30 years, and have talked about hurricane damage they have experience. They have had to evacuate several times. Hurricane Andrew, which was the costliest disaster up until now, happened under W.'s Dad, and has also been very recent.

There have been plenty of misses and near misses or weaker landfalls since then.

	04-09-2005 09:32									#50
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat I can guarante that I belive that. Human memory is hopeless when remembering past time catastrophes and acting sensible to them if they aren't reoccuring on a a yearly basis. NO may have experienced hurricanes in previous years, but the lesson thaugt is that damage isn't that bad. What I have read is that peoples expancies of the current storm was some flodded celllars and nothing worse. This time, one of the real big shits hits the fan but noone was prepared - the locals least.

So you're blaming the locals now. Nice. When all the experts have been warning about this happening for a very long time. This isn't something of a surprise.

quote: Just to be curious - will you really blame the pres for not secure people without own capaciy to leave town when this is clearly the responsibility of the mayor and gobernor ?

Strawman. I have never blamed the President for that specific part, I've blamed him for the lack of response after the hurricane hit.

	04-09-2005 09:34									#51
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Our mandatory evacuations are really just suggestions. They don't make you leave.

Right. I have never known of anybody in fact coerced into evacuating (maybe I just don't remember it). Maybe urban areas require such coersion. I don't know.

	04-09-2005 09:36									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I think the main problem is that, the US is the country with the strongest Individualism tradition among the Western countries. This means that, on the average, an Usian has a higher reluctance to obey compulsory orders such as an evacuation. Some may actively resist it, considering such an order is an infringement upon their freedom.

He's actually right.


I have family that spent several years in New Orleans and said this exact thing. THere are many people in New Orleans especially that feel disenfranchised and don't feel like they need to be a part of the greater community. Community spirit there doesn't exist, and it sounds like the already weak social fabric in New Orleans was breaking down even further before the hurricane hit.

On top of that, whether we care to admit it or not, racism played a big part of this, as many whites there resent the blacks and will not go out of their way to help them. That's not my opinion. That's just how it is.

	04-09-2005 10:20									#53
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Our mandatory evacuations are really just suggestions. They don't make you leave.

Really.

	04-09-2005 10:56									#54
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh Or they just might not have a car.

If an evacuation plan requires everybody to have a car or have access to a car to get out of the place, there is something wrong with it.

	05-09-2005 06:25									#55
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara No one ever accused Zylka of being smart.

Well you've done less than proving yourself so with such a baseless accusation. Seriously Che, grow up. Go to school. Get a job. Any of the above three.

Then we'll let the trite, dime a dozen manifesto hack talk about 'smart'. Until then, enjoy wasting your life as an internet idealogue. Accomplish much?

	05-09-2005 07:17									#56
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Wow. You weren't zomfg pwned!?

	05-09-2005 07:19									#57
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I wasn't.

	05-09-2005 09:38									#58
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it seems I was the only one who didn't beleive you to be

JM

	05-09-2005 10:04									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I think the main problem is that, the US is the country with the strongest Individualism tradition among the Western countries. This means that, on the average, an Usian has a higher reluctance to obey compulsory orders such as an evacuation. Some may actively resist it, considering such an order is an infringement upon their freedom.

Sad, but true. I keep trying to tell the libertarian idiots about civic duty and that no man is an island unto himself and they start spurting out crap about thier non-existant "natural right" to be inconsiderate *******s.

Libertarianism:
Utillitarianism:

	05-09-2005 16:45									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller it seems I was the only one who didn't beleive you to be JM

I didn't believe it was him either.