04-09-2005 07:09									#1
	The EU is bad - it's in the Bible! Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Genesis 11, 1-9:

quote: 1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. 2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. 3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter. 4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. 5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. 9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

Acts 17, 26-27:

quote: 17:26 From one man he made every nation of the human race92 to inhabit the entire earth, determining their set times and the fixed limits of the places where they would live, 17:27 so that they would search for God and perhaps grope around for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

thanks to bible.com

	04-09-2005 07:11									#2
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quote: 1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. 2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. 3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter. 4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. 5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. 9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

You know, that's not a particularly flattering depiction of God

	04-09-2005 07:13									#3
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have you read the Bible Kuci?

JM

	04-09-2005 07:15									#4
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Bits and pieces. It's boring and not particularly useful to me.

	04-09-2005 07:17									#5
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Maybe I should explain. I've heard many arguments for and against the European Union, but today I heard some based on the Book for the first time. I was talking to this very religious guy about politics and to make a long story short, he interpreted the two above quaotes to mean that God wants us to live in nation-states and therefore the EU is agianst God's will.

I just looked it up on bible.com and I'm a bit confused.

is this reason eenoguh to put the EU on the shelf?


discuss

edit: typos

	04-09-2005 07:18									#6
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might enable you to know how other people think..

I know some people here who have no experience with christian religion... and it is pretty much the same as not knowing about some other culture aspect...

might not be too important if you keep yourself in a bhuddist community (or athiest, or some other community that doesn't interact much with the US as a whole)

JM

	04-09-2005 07:18									#7
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I think Scriptural arguments against the EU are good arguments for it

	04-09-2005 07:19									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller might enable you to know how other people think..

you think Christians' beliefs actually come from the Bible?

quote: I know some people here who have no experience with christian religion... and it is pretty much the same as not knowing about some other culture aspect...

Having been raised Catholic, I know enough.

	04-09-2005 07:23									#9
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ah, ok

I was thinking you might be like one of my frenids from new england, who I swear has almost no experience of what christianity is..

JM

	04-09-2005 07:27									#10
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foufnd something that might be related to this:

The EU in Prophecy

I'll go and pass out now.

	04-09-2005 08:19									#11
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Please don't tell me you don't know that Javier Solana is the antichrist? http://www.hiddencodes.com/javier-solana.htm http://www.evenmore.co.uk/prophecy/antichrist.html

	04-09-2005 08:31									#12
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quote: discuss edit: typos

Errr, did you edit to make typo's???

	04-09-2005 08:33									#13
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quote: Originally posted by alva quote: discuss edit: typos Errr, did you edit to make typo's???

	04-09-2005 12:03									#14
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European Union doesn't have one language but many. They are not especially moving from the east either. So applying the Babel part of the Bible to the E.U. is treading extraordinarily shaky grounds.
US on the other hand, came from the east and all speak one language.
If you really want to use the Bible to decide if a state should or should not be, this part of the Bible looks much more adequate applied to the U.S. (who invented those ky scrapers?) than the E.U.

	04-09-2005 12:23									#15
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare European Union doesn't have one language but many. They are not especially moving from the east either. So applying the Babel part of the Bible to the E.U. is treading extraordinarily shaky grounds. US on the other hand, came from the east and all speak one language. If you really want to use the Bible to decide if a state should or should not be, this part of the Bible looks much more adequate applied to the U.S. (who invented those ky scrapers?) than the E.U.

And they build many cities which buildings whose top may reach unto heaven.
And god hasn´t punished the USA yet (if you don´t consider the several homemade disasters, like hurricanes and floodings as a punishment from god).
Might be interesting to confront the religious guy with these things.

	04-09-2005 12:48									#16
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GO TO is rather obsolete and other types of higher complexity loops are superior. You'd think God would know this.

	04-09-2005 13:07									#17
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Gangerolf you should go into this man's house, take every sharp object away, take every weapon away you can find, strap diapers on him, mittens that he can't hurt himself, mouth guard, and lock him in the bath room and call the cops. This dude is what we know as one of those who as crossed the line. The line of sanity.

Hey I'm very religious too, but I don't think God has an opinion about my CDs or my jeans. Let alone models of governments etc. He is a classic example of seeing what he WANTS to see. I guarantee this, God didn't take any sides on if EU is a good model or not.

Very religious is not an excuse being insane and total ****ing nutcase.

	04-09-2005 14:13									#18
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quote: 1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. 2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. 3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter. 4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. 5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. 9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

And you want to spend eternity with this psycho nut job? Feel free, I'll take my chances in the fiery depths of hell if it's all the same

	04-09-2005 15:29									#19
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<---

	04-09-2005 15:31									#20
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I say we build an orbital lift, just to really send them round the bend.

	04-09-2005 16:23									#21
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Here's an interesting question. Do you mould your religion (if you are religious) or does your religion mould you?

Given that the sacred text of all religions are subject to interpretation, and that they cover almost the entire spectrum of ethical behaviour (particularly the Western religions) a person can make a religion into one that fits his temperment and character. For example, a basically peaceful person can take the peaceful bits from Islam, and call it a religion for peace and love. OTOH, we have fudamentalists and nutcakes that call for suicide attacks and such, and they can support these with their own interpretations of the books.

OTOH, people can be influenced, esp youngsters. Thus, passages from various scripture texts can certainly be used to persuade religious people, at least to some extent. There are many suicide bombers but I don't think people are born that way. At least most people aren't. So they got moulded by religion.

So, what do you think?

	04-09-2005 16:25									#22
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I think you should have a cookie UR.

	04-09-2005 16:37									#23
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Pekka, no doubt this guy has crossed the line of sanity but this EU/bible thing isn't the worst part. Do you know that fairy-taly about the guy with the flute who got all the rats and kids in the village to follow him? He says he is that guy and that he is 400 years old. And he was dead seriuos.

	04-09-2005 16:39									#24
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Yeah I know the story. If he is the flute guy... then how come do you listen to him anyway? Even for story purposes.. ?

	04-09-2005 16:40									#25
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But this interpretation of the bible isn't something he came up with on his own, apparently several "fundamentalists" believe the same, that God wants people to live in nation-states. Of course, you could argue whether the EU is a threat to that or not, but they seem to think it is.

	04-09-2005 16:45									#26
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Why do you put fundamentalists on quotations mark. I think if someone truly thinks that, they are fundamentalists, kind of like the perfect description of one .

God wants people to live in nation states. And that's not weird?

	04-09-2005 16:46									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Yeah I know the story. If he is the flute guy... then how come do you listen to him anyway? Even for story purposes.. ?

Wackos are always entertaining. And what do they say - "the only ones who tell the truth are children and crazy people" (or was it drunk people?)

	04-09-2005 16:55									#28
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Sure, the quotation marks are probably not needed. Maybe I just think it's weird to refer to my fellow christians/countrymen as fundamentalists. I usually think of bearded men with rags on their heads who like to blow stuff up when I hear that word.

	04-09-2005 16:58									#29
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That's because you need a cookie too.

	04-09-2005 17:38									#30
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I remember reading something about the parallels between building the tower of Babel and creating the EU (although, it wasn't a religious piece)

Basically, it suggested that building the EU or the tower of Babel were good, not because they provide any real benefit when they are finished, but the actual process of building them draws people together and takes their mind off fighting by giving them such an enormous challenge to face together.