05-09-2005 09:05									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Asher You forget when you tried to invade Canada in the war of 1812, and failed.

so, a tie is not a defeat

	05-09-2005 09:11									#32
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McGuinty is a twit and I haven't seen any indication that Ontarians support his whining. A while ago he was complaining that Ontario paid too much in transfer payments. He ended being a lone whiner.

	05-09-2005 09:20									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Asher You forget when you tried to invade Canada in the war of 1812, and failed.

Don't take the bait, Asher.

	05-09-2005 10:42									#34
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither We're talking about a Saudi Arabia (literally) contained within a state with 8 Moroccos and an Egypt (comparatively, for wealth comparison purposes). The disparity in wealth would reach a breaking point

Not quite. SA's GDP per cap is 3 times Morocco's or Egypt's. Not going to happen while there is free movement of Canadians across the country.

The RoC aren't exactly paupers, . There will continue to be greater relative economic activity in Alberta, but that will be levelled by large-scale population movement. You'll probably be talking Quebec-sized Alberta in 50 years' time, with a similar level of income disparity as there is today.

I fully support letting you have your oil revenues. They were promised to the province, we should leave them to the province. But equalisation payments are also part of the deal. I don't think Alberta has any right to complain about the current arrangement. Other countries take mineral royalties directly on the federal level. We let the provinces administer them and deman in return that the piper is paid through the equalisation scheme. There's no reason we shouldn't allow a certain amount of disparity to encourage movement to an area with greater opportunities, but we are also part of the same country, and need to remember that we are Canadians first.

	05-09-2005 10:48									#35
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Clearly you're Americans first

	05-09-2005 10:56									#36
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How many times do we have to say "bring it, *****" before you realise we're serious?

	05-09-2005 11:23									#37
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Not quite. SA's GDP per cap is 3 times Morocco's or Egypt's. Not going to happen while there is free movement of Canadians across the country.

We may soon be seeing royalties to the province of $10K+ per person per annum, and then the other factors like what our GDP does when we are pumping two and then three million bbd at $70 a barrel. This assumes, of course, that ~$40/barrel is the new low.

I think that is what has McGuinty making noises.

quote: The RoC aren't exactly paupers, . There will continue to be greater relative economic activity in Alberta, but that will be levelled by large-scale population movement. You'll probably be talking Quebec-sized Alberta in 50 years' time, with a similar level of income disparity as there is today. I fully support letting you have your oil revenues. They were promised to the province, we should leave them to the province. But equalisation payments are also part of the deal. I don't think Alberta has any right to complain about the current arrangement. Other countries take mineral royalties directly on the federal level. We let the provinces administer them and deman in return that the piper is paid through the equalisation scheme. There's no reason we shouldn't allow a certain amount of disparity to encourage movement to an area with greater opportunities, but we are also part of the same country, and need to remember that we are Canadians first.

I agree with some of that. but... the disparity stands to increase.

At the very least, I can't see how we should be getting anything back for education, health, or welfare if our prosperity goes beyond a certain point. Neither should any province that finds itself in similar circumstances.

However, the feds would not want to do it that way. An Alberta with no equalisation dollars coming back is an Alberta that can tell the feds to take a hike on just about any area of national policy, like the Canada Health Act.

	05-09-2005 11:26									#38
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You could slash taxes

	05-09-2005 11:29									#39
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If Alberta wants to keep paying into the equalisation plan and not take anything back in order to set up their health or educational systems then they're welcome to. More for the rest of us.

NYE< do you really think that it will stay 10K per person?

People move. Extra wealth in Alberta means more jobs in Alberta. More jobs mean more internal population movement to Alberta. That means more people, which means the pie needs to get cut into more slices.

It's a self-correcting process.

	05-09-2005 11:31									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker You could slash taxes

Probably what Ralphie wants to do.

The Albertan Conservatives are going to get an unpleasant surprise when they realise that people who move to Alberta keep their old political stances, though.

We'll dilute the rednecks to the point of no return...

	05-09-2005 11:38									#41
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Well, I wish that all other Canadians saw it the way you do. I am led to believe they do not.

And then there's the dirty little secret that we haven't really seen dime one of royalties from the oil sands yet.

The real problem comes tomorrow, when $30 billion in royalties is low. $0.25 for every $ of the price of oil. $12.5 billion (at $50 pb) for every million bbd they pump from the oil sands. Talk is 3 to 5 million bbd. Added to other royalties that already amount to $8 billion a year.

It's just far to big a honey pot for Ottawa to stay out of.

	05-09-2005 11:41									#42
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Probably what Ralphie wants to do. The Albertan Conservatives are going to get an unpleasant surprise when they realise that people who move to Alberta keep their old political stances, though. We'll dilute the rednecks to the point of no return...

Did that a long time ago.

Funny thing, I listen to people who moved here ten and twenty years ago, and they say 'hell yeah, you guys got it right!'

	05-09-2005 11:44									#43
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Alberta has seen a surge in population over the past few decades and still remains hugely conservative.

Some people will retain their old political views, but slowly and surely most adopt the views of people here.

	05-09-2005 11:45									#44
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The RoC can stand on its own two feet. If Alberta gets relatively larger, then that's the nature of things.

We'll take what's due us from equalisation, and the rest will take care of itself. I can tell you right now that people who move to Alberta aren't going to generally be the type to want to cut themselves loose from Canada when their friends and family are still living there.

Alberta's giving us some growing pains. It'll settle down.

	05-09-2005 11:47									#45
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse The RoC can stand on its own two feet. If Alberta gets relatively larger, then that's the nature of things. We'll take what's due us from equalisation, and the rest will take care of itself. I can tell you right now that people who move to Alberta aren't going to generally be the type to want to cut themselves loose from Canada when their friends and family are still living there. Alberta's giving us some growing pains. It'll settle down.

You act like cutting lose from Canada will make it impossible to travel between the two "countries". I doubt that'd be the case.

I have lots of relatives in the states as I do relatives in Ontario, it's actually easier to see the relatives in the States...

The fact that friends and family may be in a different political boundary doesn't really affect people much.

	05-09-2005 11:49									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Alberta has seen a surge in population over the past few decades and still remains hugely conservative.

It was virtually monolithically conservative (small c please). It takes time for a trickle to make a dent in an ocean. Get used to the idea of an Alberta more tightly bound to the rest of Canada in outlook, because it's on its way. Also get used to the idea that Albertan separatism is dead before it even got moving.

quote: Some people will retain their old political views, but slowly and surely most adopt the views of people here.

People are less tractable than you think. You can take the boy out of ____ but you'll never take the _____ out of the boy...

	05-09-2005 11:50									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Asher You act like cutting lose from Canada will make it impossible to travel between the two "countries". I doubt that'd be the case.

Actually, I was talking about a sense of loyalty.

Believe it or not, most people have one.

	05-09-2005 11:51									#48
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As a random sidenote, at a party on Friday night I met 2 people who just moved to Calgary: one was a hairdresser from Sarnia, Ontario and the other was a Co-gen Operator from Thunder Bay, Ontario.

The girl from Sarnia drove out here 'cause her friend was moving here, so she came with nothing except some money in her pocket and a small suitcase. She found a job within 2 days of arriving here and now has a nice apartment and a circle of friends.

The guy is making a lot of money with ATCO, found his job within a week of moving here, and he doesn't even have to go to Fort McMurray.

Both of them also didn't care I was gay, and they both also expressed some conservative fiscal views...

	05-09-2005 11:51									#49
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Hell, talk to Flubber if you want an example...

	05-09-2005 11:52									#50
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He's been moving a bit right as I recall, he used to be this leftie from Newfoundland.

	05-09-2005 11:54									#51
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In 50 years half of Alberta is going to be Flubbers

Have fun.

	05-09-2005 11:55									#52
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse It was virtually monolithically conservative (small c please). It takes time for a trickle to make a dent in an ocean.

Is that why the CCF founding convention was in Calgary?

I'd say the conservatives have gained ground, not lost it.

	05-09-2005 11:56									#53
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The key is to hold off Alberta's conservatives while it's gaining representation but before the immigration has an impact on the solid blue of North Texas

Luckily Canadian conservatives are born losers

	05-09-2005 11:58									#54
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Is that why the CCF founding convention was in Calgary? I'd say the conservatives have gained ground, not lost it.

You want to go back to the 30s?



Alberta at the time (still?) was full of political whack jobs.

Left-right thinking doesn't even come close to describing that mish-mash of muddled ideologies

	05-09-2005 11:59									#55
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse In 50 years half of Alberta is going to be Flubbers Have fun.

My parents were both from Ontario and are now conservative (I don't know what they were before).

I think you underestimate how constant people's political opinions can stay. Most peoples' opinions change over time.

	05-09-2005 12:04									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Asher My parents were both from Ontario and are now conservative (I don't know what they were before).

Probably conservative, son. Did your dad move to get a job with an oil company? Doubly so then.

Ask them.

People change their minds, but it's a lot easier to move 3000 km than it is to switch your vote (if you cared in the first place)

The economic incentive is going to get difficult to ignore, but I think you'll find that ex-pats (using the term loosely here) are often the most passionate about their origins...

	05-09-2005 12:05									#57
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Is that why the CCF founding convention was in Calgary? I'd say the conservatives have gained ground, not lost it.

So what? That bears no reflection on the majority view at the time - or now.

	05-09-2005 12:29									#58
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse It was virtually monolithically conservative (small c please). It takes time for a trickle to make a dent in an ocean. Get used to the idea of an Alberta more tightly bound to the rest of Canada in outlook, because it's on its way. Also get used to the idea that Albertan separatism is dead before it even got moving.

Stereotypes are funny things.

My mother's parents raised 3 girls and 2 boys on a farm through depression era Alberta and through the war.

Oldest boy joined the Navy, of all things, and drove barges on DDay. Harry came back after the war but then finally settled in BC in the forestry industry. He was very strong on the union movement. 3 boys and a girl all settled in and are happy campers in BC.

Oldest girl brought home an RCMP officer. Favorite story is when Irene brought Herb home to meet the family. It was early summer. Someone came in and said 'Dad, there's a deer out behind the barn.' Grandpa picked up his rifle and went to go out the door. Grandma said 'Howard! What about Herb?' Grandpa said that Herb could come along if he wanted. They settled in in BC after several transfers. Had two girls. Ones a labour lawyer in Toronto.

Youngest girl was a lifelong federal government employee. She ended up supervising payroll for Western Canada. I doubt anyone ever said Mary was a red neck.

Youngest boy was the closest thing you could find to a real, live, Alberta red neck. Bill wanted to be a cowboy. Seriously. But then he got into the oil patch early and went from rough neck to tool push on the rigs. He was large, and gruff, and he knew everything that was right. He had three boys and two girls. I have to admit I was a bit surprised when I met Scott's so, Jim, at a family gathering and saw Bill chatting away with him.

I'm sorry to meander a bit. We buried Bill last week. He was the last of that generation. I just wanted to say something about him, his family, and all the other 'red necks' like him.

	05-09-2005 23:52									#59
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Yup. Too much beer.

	06-09-2005 00:10									#60
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It should come as no surprise that those who reside in Alberta and benefit from Alberta’s oil wealth also support policies that will kept that wealth in Alberta. No more then it should come as a surprise that those in Newfoundland support policies that will bring the wealth from Alberta to Newfoundland. It has nothing to do with “conservative” or “liberal” policies being better than the other (these considerations do not enter the equation when people make such decisions), but rather boils down to self-interest. As for Alberta being so well off, it has absolutely nothing to do with the Progressive Conservative government, and everything to do with the oil; an untrained monkey could run this province.