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notyoueither is offline notyoueither
Deity
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Aug 2001
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  Old Post 05-09-2005 07:37
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http://www.theglobeandmail.com/serv...NStory/National
quote:
Globeandmail.com > National > Article
Klein steps up sabre-rattling on oil revenueBy KATHERINE HARDING AND PATRICK BRETHOUR

Friday, August 26, 2005 Updated at 5:14 AM EDT

From Friday's Globe and Mail

Edmonton and Calgary — Alberta Premier Ralph Klein warned yesterday that politicians who consider themselves "great Canadians" will "keep your hands off" the western province's swelling coffers, which could see its surplus soar to $7-billion this year.

"If they are the great Canadians that they profess to be, then they'll leave us alone and respect the Constitution," he said.

"We are doing more than our fair share, so keep your hands off," Mr. Klein said, later adding that other provinces could keep up to Alberta by becoming more economically competitive.

His warning was partly brought on by Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty's recent musing that Alberta's wealth is becoming "the elephant in the room" and that the growing regional economic disparity needs to be addressed.

Prime Minister Paul Martin said this week that there are no plans to target Alberta's oil and gas royalties.

But the topic has nevertheless become a sensitive political issue in the province.

The front page of a local newspaper even carried a story yesterday with the provocative headline: "Is NEP junior in our future?" Many Albertans still blame the infamous 1980 National Energy Program for wreaking havoc on the province's economy in the 1980s.

Mr. Klein said politicians outside Alberta should remember that the recent record-breaking oil prices aren't going to last forever and the money the province has reaped is theirs alone.

"It's encouraging to hear the Prime Minister and [Finance Minister] Ralph Goodale say they aren't interested in raiding our resources and cashing in our royalty program in a second NEP," he added.

Yesterday, Mr. Martin touched on the thorny topic again, saying: "This country was not built on jealousy. . . . This country was built on working together."

Mr. Klein argued that his government is being prudent with its windfall and that he favours using cuts to both corporate and personal income taxes in the future to keep attracting workers and investment to Alberta.

He said the idea still needs his party's support, but new tax cuts could be implemented as early as the spring.

Recently, the Canada West Foundation, a western think-tank, warned against that strategy for fear it would disrupt the Canadian economy and set up Alberta as a "tax haven in the federation."

Mr. Klein said that concern is unfounded because other provinces could keep up to Alberta by using incentives such as subsidies and loan guarantees.

"The only incentive we have to sustain economic growth and prosperity is to have a very competitive tax regime," he said.

The continuing rise in energy prices will make it easy for Alberta to cut corporate taxes. High oil and natural-gas prices have eaten through the energy sector's tax credits, built up in lean years when exploration spending outpaced revenue.

The continuing rise in energy prices means Alberta can cut the tax rate and still collect much more revenue than in the past, said Greg Stringham, a vice-president at the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers.

Mr. Stringham said he believes Alberta will reduce its corporate tax rate, currently 11.5 per cent, by a percentage point a year starting with the next budget, until it reaches 8 per cent. Alberta would then have the lowest corporate tax rate by far in the country, just over half that of Ontario's current 14-per-cent rate.


There is a growing embarrassment of wealth in Alberta. With oil at $50USD+ per barrel for the foreseeable future, the 'problem' is just going to get worse.

The premier of Ontario has begun the debate for the assault.

Meanwhile, Klein is stuck on 'leave us alone'. I wonder if he has any clue what storm is about to break upon us.

Asher is offline Asher
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It would make my day if the Liberals tried to do another NEP.

Ninot is offline Ninot
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Nov 2001
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  Old Post 05-09-2005 07:58
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As a canadian, this entire topic kinda embarrases me.

As a quebecer, this entire topic kinda annoys me,

as a 20 year old who is going to join the ranks of the most subsidized university students in North America, i'm blissful and dont care about any of western Canadas money or worries.

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
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Aug 2001
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Some background info.

Energy royalties are worth about $8 billion a year to the GoA. That will take off shortly as the oil sands royalty holidays (to pay for construction) and royalty credits to other sectors from lean times are exhausted and come to an end.

Meanwhile, Alberta taxpayers pay in about $9 billion a year to equalisation (net). The governments of the RoC have been getting at least as much from Alberta's booming economy as the GoA gets directly from the 'oil'.

Then there are the 'indirect' benefits. The 'indirect' benefits are actually the direct ones. They are jobs and money in the 'local' economy.

There is massive spending going on to enlarge existing oil sands projects and bring new ones on stream. About half of that investment gets spent in the RoC to buy materials and equipment.

Then there are the pay cheques that do not register in Alberta. People come in from Ontario and Newfoundland, work in camp for 6 months, and then go home with their share of the loot to enjoy the winter. They then come back next summer for another load. They do not register as residents of Alberta and their provincial taxes are paid to whereever they are from.

Still, there is a river of cash, swollen with high oil prices, about to flood Alberta in an even greater sea of lucre.

What should we do about it?

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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Feb 2001
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Give it to me.

Asher is offline Asher
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Nov 1999
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
Some background info.

Energy royalties are worth about $8 billion a year to the GoA. That will take off shortly as the oil sands royalty holidays (to pay for construction) and royalty credits to other sectors from lean times are exhausted and come to an end.

Yup. The oilsands right now are paying 1% royalties because of all of the construction they're still doing, it'll bounce up to 30-40% (!) within a few years (depending on the company).

quote:
What should we do about it?

Invest, invest, invest.

Omni Rex Draconis is offline Omni Rex Draconis
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Dec 1999
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  Old Post 05-09-2005 08:06
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quote:
Prime Minister Paul Martin said this week that there are no plans to target Alberta's oil and gas royalties.


Yeah, right. Like I believe a single word spewed from a Liberal. They will grab as much of Alberta's oil wealth as they can get, as soon as they can get it. Probably the only thing holding them back right now is their thin hold on the government.

McGuinty's latest whinging about becoming a have-not province is embarrassing to me as a resident of Ontario. We have a strong infrastructure, a skilled workforce, vast resources, and a close geographical connection to the huge American market. The only thing we lack is political leadership - and that is our own damn fault.

I have always had disdain for Quebec's continual threats of separation - they would sink like a rock on their own. To the west, however, I give my full support if they should finally give central Canada the heave-ho.

Just leave room for one more, guys, cause I am moving in with you.

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
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Aug 2001
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  Old Post 05-09-2005 08:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher
Invest, invest, invest.


Invest where? Just in Alberta?

I was thinking that a lot of good could be done by a regional or national investment regime to fund development at generous terms.

To begin with, we could fund the development of greater infrastructure to open the outlets of the West to the Pacific.

Asher is offline Asher
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Nov 1999
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
Invest where? Just in Alberta?

I was thinking that a lot of good could be done by a regional or national investment regime to fund development at generous terms.

To begin with, we could fund the development of greater infrastructure to open the outlets of the West to the Pacific.

Invest in the province (economic diversification, ample support to post-secondary education and huge tax incentives to draw talent and companies here).

Invest the money so it will grow and we'll have a massive "rainy day fund", just incase.

Invest in the roads and infrastructure and general education system.

Invest in health care. We want to live.

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
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Aug 2001
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  Old Post 05-09-2005 08:18
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With oilsands royalty holidays coming to an end, and oil at $60-70 bucks a barrel, the GoA could soon have a surplus that equals the combined budgets of a couple of Maritime Provinces.

Either we are going to have to bring ourselves to spend some for the greater good, Asher, or the calls to help us do that through Ottawa will reach a deafening roar.

What Ninot said about embarassment really strikes home, to me. We, and Saskatchewan, are lucky sons of *****es at $40 a barrel. At $70 inequality will reach a tipping point. The feds will move in, unless... we address the situation ourselves.

Asher is offline Asher
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Nov 1999
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  Old Post 05-09-2005 08:21 Visit Asher's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
With oilsands royalty holidays coming to an end, and oil at $60-70 bucks a barrel, the GoA could soon have a surplus that equals the combined budgets of a couple of Maritime Provinces.

Either we are going to have to bring ourselves to spend some for the greater good, Asher, or the calls to help us do that through Ottawa will reach a deafening roar.

What Ninot said about embarassment really strikes home, to me. We, and Saskatchewan, are lucky sons of *****es at $40 a barrel. At $70 inequality will reach a tipping point. The feds will move in, unless... we address the situation ourselves.


We can address the situation ourselves by giving the big fat finger to the Feds if they try to take what is legally ours.

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
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Aug 2001
time: 22:31
  Old Post 05-09-2005 08:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher

Invest in the province (economic diversification, ample support to post-secondary education and huge tax incentives to draw talent and companies here).

Invest the money so it will grow and we'll have a massive "rainy day fund", just incase.

Invest in the roads and infrastructure and general education system.

Invest in health care. We want to live.


All good things to do, but do we need every penny of the $30 billion a year, or more, in royalties that the oil sands could eventually bring to spend on ourselves?

Tories (real ones) believe in something about an obligation to help those less fortunate out of duty, not compulsion. Why could we not offer help with regional development in other parts of Canada? Why should we wait for other to demand it? Why can't we be as wealthy in spirit as we are in material?

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
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Aug 2001
time: 22:31
  Old Post 05-09-2005 08:29
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We're talking about a Saudi Arabia (literally) contained within a state with 8 Moroccos and an Egypt (comparatively, for wealth comparison purposes). The disparity in wealth would reach a breaking point.

I do not know of another federal system with such a disparity. Maybe there is one, but I haven't heard of it.

123john321 is offline 123john321
King
Boo!
Feb 2002
time: 23:31
  Old Post 05-09-2005 08:32
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither

What should we do about it?


Where's an idea about what Kelin should do, give $ 1 Billion (or somthing like it) to the Victims of Katrine, (Not as from Canada, but from Alberta) and watch the fireworks in Ottawa. Not only will it help them, I would be funny to see what the rest of Canada would think.

techumseh is offline techumseh
King
of the frozen North.
Apr 1999
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Klien is simply creating a boogyman to hide his own dismal performance. There hasn't been ANY threat from the feds on this, in fact, they specifically deny having any designs on Alberts's wealth.

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
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Aug 2001
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The premier of Ontario is considered to be a personage who should be taken seriously.

Asher is offline Asher
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Nov 1999
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
All good things to do, but do we need every penny of the $30 billion a year, or more, in royalties that the oil sands could eventually bring to spend on ourselves?

Tories (real ones) believe in something about an obligation to help those less fortunate out of duty, not compulsion. Why could we not offer help with regional development in other parts of Canada? Why should we wait for other to demand it? Why can't we be as wealthy in spirit as we are in material?

Because the oil won't be around forever, and once it's gone we'll be worthless to the Feds as we always were in the past.

Asher is offline Asher
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Nov 1999
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quote:
Originally posted by techumseh
Klien is simply creating a boogyman to hide his own dismal performance. There hasn't been ANY threat from the feds on this, in fact, they specifically deny having any designs on Alberts's wealth.


What dismal performance?

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
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Aug 2001
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher

Because the oil won't be around forever, and once it's gone we'll be worthless to the Feds as we always were in the past.


Asher, by the time the oil is gone Alberta and BC will have a population equal to or exceeding Ontario.

Feel the power.

Asher is offline Asher
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Nov 1999
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
Asher, by the time the oil is gone Alberta and BC will have a population equal to or exceeding Ontario.

Feel the power.

But unless we get our ass in gear with diversification, we may as well be a poverty province when that oil does run out.

Sava is offline Sava
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Mar 2001
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I think America needs to liberate Alberta.

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
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Aug 2001
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We have our ass in gear as is. Our 'direct' revenues stand to more than double. Do we need to spend every penny of that on ourselves?

How about lending at good terms to development across the country? We get the money back. They get jobs and better economies. Everybody wins and we lose nothing.

Asher is offline Asher
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
We have our ass in gear as is. Our 'direct' revenues stand to more than double. Do we need to spend every penny of that on ourselves?

How about lending at good terms to development across the country? We get the money back. They get jobs and better economies. Everybody wins and we lose nothing.


I'm not sure what we would gain by handing out welfare checks to Newfoundland fishermen.

Voltaire is offline Voltaire
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Aug 2001
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher

But unless we get our ass in gear with diversification, we may as well be a poverty province when that oil does run out.


Yes, except the oil won't be running out in the near future. The Athabasca Oil Sands deposit contains ~1.6 trillion barrels of crude, of which ~311 billion barrels can be extracted economically using today's technology. As a comparison, Saudi Arabia's proven reserves are ~260 billion barrels. So we have plenty to spare.

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
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quote:
Originally posted by Sava
I think America needs to liberate Alberta.


Ever had a rabid badger gnaw yer dick off?

Iraq would be seen as a relative success.

notyoueither is offline notyoueither
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Aug 2001
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher


I'm not sure what we would gain by handing out welfare checks to Newfoundland fishermen.


Surely there are opportunities for development that do not amount to welfare cheques for fishermen.

Asher is offline Asher
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Nov 1999
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
Surely there are opportunities for development that do not amount to welfare cheques for fishermen.

I don't believe it, not in Newfoundland anyway.

Sava is offline Sava
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Mar 2001
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither


Ever had a rabid badger gnaw yer dick off?

Iraq would be seen as a relative success.


1. Iraq was fought on the cheap... and in a half-assed way. America would do it right for Canada.

2. Iraqi insurgents are fanatical. Canadians are pushovers.

3. America is undefeated against other white people.

4. Iraq is one large weapons cache. Canada is not... well... mostly hunting rifles. Certainly not AK-47s and RPG's.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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Feb 2001
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quote:
America is undefeated against other white people.


To sig, or not to sig...

Asher is offline Asher
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Nov 1999
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quote:
Originally posted by Sava
3. America is undefeated against other white people.


You forget when you tried to invade Canada in the war of 1812, and failed.

 
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