06-09-2005 23:37									#1
	Time machine wonder (part 2) Inflate your Upload Space

So, to continue the discussion about time travel in Civ game (backward time travel, just to avoid unnecessary comments), how about the following implementation:

When you (or any AI) start building the wonder, the game saves. The time machine wonder should probably take long time to build, but when you finish building it, you could send the unit(s) back in time to the moment of saved game.

Now, the only thing that sucks about it is that if the AI builds it first, and then you essentially have to replay the last N turns.

Of cause, the main CIV campaign should not have this wonder, it is only option for mods.

	07-09-2005 00:07									#2
	Support Apolyton

The current time machine being worked on can only sent back neutrons, and only to the point in time that the machine is invented and turned on. Assuming they develope communication, perhaps even morse, a message is about all that could be sent back. THAT however makes it really interesting...

Persians attack turn blah...volcano next to blah will blow up turn blah.

Makes it almost doable because the game doesn't need to be replayed.

	07-09-2005 02:45									#3
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Hillarious idea!

I suggested a less sci fi tech, weather modification, and was voted down 80-20%, civers seem to be against modding the game into the future. I doubt they'll even be a space elevator in civ4.

	07-09-2005 13:51									#4
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Lancer The current time machine being worked on can only sent back neutrons, and only to the point in time that the machine is invented and turned on.

AFAIK we are not so near to the feasible project of building a time machine for neutron, also if someone is announcing the building of a mock up or a proof of concept.
IIRC there are some results of a theory test, a long way before been accepted by scientific community, and some idea about general relativism and an amount of energy involved so great to be unfeasible at the best...

	07-09-2005 15:12									#5
	Suffering from ads?

quote: @Lancer: a message is about all that could be sent back

Uh? Am I the only one wondering what that message would look like, and who would get it? If it were morse as Lancer suggested, who is going to receive the transmission?

	07-09-2005 22:58									#6
	Put an end to popups!

Adm.Naismith, I though it was a done deal, but I really don't keep up on these things as I'm sure you figgured out.

AeonOfTime, the only one who could possibly recieve the message would be someone with a time machine. The message also can't be sent back to before the existance of the machine. Or so they say.

	08-09-2005 06:17									#7
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

To continue a thought in the previous thread, maybe a Time Machine wonder could work like the show Seven Days. On the show, which was made obsolete by 9/11, someone would go back in time after some event and warn people just before it happened...but you could only go back 7 days.


Operatives at Area 51 notify you that a spy will destroy a Cathedral in East St. Louis next turn....or some country will sneak attack with helicopters at Newark.


No re-playing of any game turns.....since that would be boring especially end-game, no new game mechanics and you only need to have the AI wait one turn after deciding on an action to warn you before it happens. If you didn't have the Wonder, you'd never notice the difference. Maybe even make it tough and throw in some false reports if you don't have enough science or whatever.

might be a thought, not that it'll be implemented though.

	08-09-2005 10:40									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

To the above post:
I can see how such wonder would predict AI turns, but if AI has this wonder, how can it predict player's turns? Also for multiplayer game, it become completely useless.

	08-09-2005 18:43									#9
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Well, I guess it wouldn't be that useful as a Wonder for the AI or multi-player. I guess its more just something to think about the possibility of doing.

Multiplayer's could always warn about the random negative events (volcano, riots). Although I can't imagine what the AI would do with it except function as preventing negative events (SMAC's "a plague infected your base and killed 10,000 people"). I guess that can be used for SP and MP as well.

Probably not a Wonder that would get built a lot, especially as you could only do it late in the game and by then hopefully you have the infrastructure to handle random problems. Making it prevent any negative events would likely be easiest to code for. If TimeMachine=1 and NegativePopUp=1 then NegativePopUp=0.

	09-09-2005 00:49									#10
	Support Apolyton

Adm.Naismith, we can send photons back. But only to the time that the time machine started operating, and it started "preserving" the photon. It's a repeatable lab experiment that has been repeated, so it isn't apparently a hoax. But as it is exotic science, I suppose that it could be a hoax, and just slipping by the confirmers somehow. Stranger things have happened.

The main problem seems to be that they cannot figure out a way to make it useful. I haven't seen any news of anyone debunking it, although it's been a year or three since the first confirmations were announced. Maybe they just haven't told us anything else because they have figured out how to send back the winning numbers for the various lotteries, and they are just winning a lot of the smaller prizes?

	09-09-2005 02:17									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Darkstar Adm.Naismith, we can send photons back. But only to the time that the time machine started operating, and it started "preserving" the photon. It's a repeatable lab experiment that has been repeated, so it isn't apparently a hoax.

Can you give a reference (link preferred) for that?

	11-09-2005 18:28									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by AoA To continue a thought in the previous thread, maybe a Time Machine wonder could work like the show Seven Days. On the show, which was made obsolete by 9/11, someone would go back in time after some event and warn people just before it happened...but you could only go back 7 days.

Great show, at least initially until it got weird. But what makes you so sure it's not real?

Just because something bad happens, doesn't mean the future didn't try to warn us.

Maybe we tried to warn us but we didn't believe ourselves. (Some would say that's happening now with "signs of the coming Apocalypse" and yet we continue in our sinful ways. )

Maybe the "bad people" who control us ignored the warning because they wanted the bad thing to happen to further their nefarious plans. (The old "FDR knew about Pearl Harbor in advance but did nothing because he wanted the US to enter WW2" conspiracy theory. )

Maybe we believed the warning and tried to do something about it but we couldn't fix everything. (Maybe 9/11 was a lot worse in an alternate timeline and this was the best we could do but we can't tell people because if they knew how bad it "would have been" it would expose the project or cause unrestrained retaliation. )

While it may be an intriguing idea, I don't think it belongs in Civ. It would require players (including humans in MP or if the AI got the wonder) to commit to actions in advance and then be unable to alter those plans in response to the wonder-holders countermeasures. Not only unrealistic, but totally destabilizing. And if you allowed plans to change in response to countermeasures, it could turn into a major exploit in the hands of a human against an AI with the wonder ("Next turn I'll attract this city" and when the AI repositions defensive forces you attack somewhere else) or it would become totally worthless if the AI could handle false plans.

	11-09-2005 19:49									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Actually, they already included a Time Machine Wonder in the game. It can first be built in the late Empire Building (Victorian) Age. If you don't see it in the game, you know it wasn't well received and they retroactively took it out.

	12-09-2005 03:19									#14
	Suffering from ads?

A Time Machine would be really cool!

	12-09-2005 04:34									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by AoA Actually, they already included a Time Machine Wonder in the game. It can first be built in the late Empire Building (Victorian) Age. If you don't see it in the game, you know it wasn't well received and they retroactively took it out.

	12-09-2005 15:07									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Simultaneous turns. That's how a time machine wonder could work in MP games.

Normally, everyone would submit their orders to the host at the same time and then they're performed...however if you have the time machine wonder, you get to see all the orders before submitting your own.

	13-09-2005 03:49									#17
	Increase Your PM Length

MxM, I've been looking for references. I haven't been able to find any live references, and I'm not subscribing to news sources just to look up this story. Sorry.

If I come across the details anywhere still live, I'll post a link.

	13-09-2005 04:08									#18
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by AoA Actually, they already included a Time Machine Wonder in the game. It can first be built in the late Empire Building (Victorian) Age. If you don't see it in the game, you know it wasn't well received and they retroactively took it out.

That explains a lot!